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273914 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑06‑10 VCI Paper
Does anyone know where I could purchase just a sheet or two of VCI paper? I'd
like to make some chisel edge proctors and I'm thinking of making sleeves out of
VCI paper and then dipping that in Plasti Dip. Thoughts?


-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
273915 Erik Levin 2021‑06‑10 Re: VCI Paper
Dan wrote:
> I'm thinking of making sleeves out of
> VCI paper and then dipping that in Plasti Dip

I don't know that VCI paper is really the best choice here. The life of VCI
paper is not the life of the chisel. Depending on storage (sealed case, drawer
or cabinet that gets opened and closed, exposed to free air) the life may be a
year or three down to weeks or less. It releases the vapor to maintain an
equilibrium, and any loss will be made up until the paper is depleted. Leave a
piece on the bench for a week and it is done. The shelf life isn't forever,
either.

If these are for users, and corrosion is that big a worry, you might make edge
protectors that can tolerate the tool being oiled/waxed for storage, or make a
case you can keep VCI paper in.



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273919 Kirk Eppler 2021‑06‑11 Re: VCI Paper
Yup, I would not go there either.

I have VCIs in all my tool chests and cupboards, and it's the closed
environment that is critical.  (And they are almost all due for a
replacement.)

The VCI works well from the factory to the sales emporium to the garage,
but after that, unless you keep it in a closed environment, it won't last
long.

But, if you are determined, Bullfrog VCI is my choice.  The Rust Store
sells stuff, but getting 100 sheets, or 35# does not seem ideal

I'd imagine your best bet is to buy stuff wrapped in VCI, then  reuse it.

Kirk in HMB, not very helpful today.



On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 12:37 PM Erik Levin via groups.io  wrote:
273925 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑06‑11 Re: VCI Paper
I was wondering how long the VCI paper would work, and kind of assumed it
wouldn't last long if it "out in the open". That being said, I'm going to give
it a try as an experiment. Chris Schwarz recommended wrapping chisel tips with
painter's tape (sticky side out) and then dipping in Plasi-Dip, and I know
others use things like business cards and Plasti-Dip. If it doesn't work, I'm
really not out anything. I think I'll rob a little VCI paper from some of the
packagings I've received when purchasing other blades.

-Dan

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
273928 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2021‑06‑11 Re: VCI Paper
I use the painter’s tape/Plasti-Dip method. Works great and is easily
replaceable when/if they wear out. Works well on gouges too, but requires a bit
more finesse getting the protective tips back on, especially on the deeper
sweeps.

Stephen
273929 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑06‑12 Re: VCI Paper
I can’t help suggesting that this is over thinking.

First - what are you protecting from?   Are the chisels travelling? In a bag? In
a box?  As individuals or is it a chisel family outing?   How long do they need
protecting?  Are these protectors for lifetime use, or just a one or two off
travel/job protection.  Do they have to be slip on and cling on?

As you’re talking vpi then you’re after rust prevention not just edge
protection.

Comments so far have pointed out how short lived vpi is, and if you are making
up protectors for the tips, the rest of the blade is open to rusting in humid
conditions.

The traditional thing would be a tool roll that protects the whole thing, but
leather needs to be  ?vegetable tanned? To be rust safe.  You get something
which keeps them safe from edge damage though.  If you substitute cloth or
canvas for leather, you can impregnate the material with a light oil to keep
rust away.  If you need to use lots of oil, then you may be better to use a non
polymerising oil that will be ok for wooden tool handles if it gets on them.

If you are needing to take some chisels to a work site, I’d go with a roll, ,or
if you are just needing a quick and temporary something, then find some closed
cell foam the kind of stuff used for packing items like computers or printers,
stuff that doesn’t collapse easily.  Cut a chunk as large or small as you want,
jab the blade in -it will hold because the stuff is stiff.  A wrap of tape to
stop it from being able to split out, and the job is done.  Oil your chisel
before you put it in there, and the oil will form a rust averse housing.  You DO
keep an oily rag in a tin if you have a fight with humidity, don’t you?

That last is quick, cheap, replaceable, all the things a galoot looks for.

At the other end of the scale would be a fitted box for as many chisels as are
in your travelling set.

Me?  Cheap and cheerful, respect the edge, every time.


Richard Wilson
Blue sky, blue sea, the Mediterranean comes to the North Sea (German Ocean,
Wolfgang)



> On 11 Jun 2021, at 17:32, Dan Beck  wrote:
> I was wondering how long the VCI paper would work, and kind of assumed it
wouldn't last long if it "out in the open". That being said, I'm going to give
it a try as an experiment. Chris Schwarz recommended wrapping chisel tips with
painter's tape (sticky side out) and then dipping in Plasi-Dip, and I know
others use things like business cards and Plasti-Dip. If it doesn't work, I'm
really not out anything. I think I'll rob a little VCI paper from some of the
packagings I've received when purchasing other blades.
> 
> -Dan
> 
> -- 
> I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273930 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2021‑06‑12 Re: VCI Paper
I haven’t really paid close attention to the VCI topic, but I use a great deal
of VCI paper at my plant.  It works, but it must be in a closed container, such
as a corrugated, taped box.  In the open, the vapors bleed off.

A better method for us, is a dip in “rust ban” liquid, but that is much more
costly.

I’m not sure what the original poster was after, but a quick wipe with 3 in 1
oil would give far more protection.

T.

Anthony M. Zaffuto, President 
Metaltech, Inc.
3547 Watson Hwy.
DuBois, PA. 15801
www.metaltech-pm.com
(814) 375-9399
(814) 541-5019 (cell)
273931 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2021‑06‑12 Re: VCI Paper
Tool roll leather: absolutely agree must use veggie tan leather.  Most
upholstery and clothing leathers (thinner, softer, brightly colored) are
chrome tanned.  Trust me, even if it has a cloth lining, chrome tanned
leather will rust your tools (acidic vapors from the embedded chromium
salts I'm told, not an expert) .  Purchasing small amounts of veggie tanned
leather is pretty easy over the internet.  Many suppliers, local saddle
shops for people in the countryside,  city leather hobby shops etc
Cheers

-- Claudio

On Sat., Jun. 12, 2021, 10:46 a.m. Richard Wilson, <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
273933 Thomas Conroy 2021‑06‑13 Re: VCI Paper
Claudio wrote:Tool roll leather: absolutely agree must use veggie tan leather.
Mostupholstery and clothing leathers (thinner, softer, brightly colored) are
chrome tanned. Trust me, even if it has a cloth lining, chrome tanned
leather will rust your tools (acidic vapors from the embedded chromium
salts I'm told, not an expert)....
-- Claudio

     Any leather will cause leather to rust if left in contact. DAMHIKT. Lets
just say I was really proud of all those leather sheaths I made, before I threw
them out. Leather may not cause rust (and corrosion of other metals) right away,
but sooner or later it inevitably will. And once you have a spot of rust inside
a sheath, it will catalyze more rust in the same place no matter how often you
clean the knife. The only cure is to throw the sheath away.

     For most chisels and binding knives that aren't being used continually, I
now just wrap two or three turns of masking tape around the tip, with about 1/8"
sticking out beyond the edge and with the first layer well down into contact
with the metal. The pressure-sensitive adhesive, horrible in so many ways and
for so many things, actually preserves the steel against rust as well as
anything I know; I think the adhesive seals out air and water vapour. I turn
over the outer end of the tape for about a quarter of an inch to make it easy to
find the spot to start peeling it off when I want to use the tool. The bit
extending beyond the edge prevents things from being cut with amazing success.
If the tape ever does go bad, it doesn't corrode the steel; and if worse comes
to worst and it hardens it can still be scraped off with relative ease.
     Many years ago I bought a very fine binders' paring knife which had been
sitting in a damp garage for fifty years. Adhesive tape had been wrapped around
the base of the blade for comfort in use.  When I removed the tape, the steel
was pristine under it. All the rest of the blade was pitted as deeply as any
tool I have ever succeeded in bringing back into use. I wore out a blue diamond
stone, slicked it down to useless, flattening the back of that one knife,
working at it full time for almost a week (I was young---what can I say?) Once I
had the back flat and the edge sharp, it turned out to be first-rate; it has
been my favorite paring knife for about thirty-five years now. I'm a great fan
of adhesive tape as a rust preventative measure on steel.

     For leather paring knives and chisels that are in frequent use, I use heavy
paper or light cardboard  to wrap a little scabbard, two or three inches long
and two or three wraps, with the end turned over the edge two or three times and
all held together with masking tape. White paper and board, not the newsprint
and floor sweepings in cereal boxes; newsprint contains corrosive impurities.
These are ugly but they take about ten minutes to make, and can be thrown away
immediately if rust develops, without tugging at the heartstrings.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley
273935 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2021‑06‑13 Re: VCI Paper
Tom,

I’ve had a set of LN chisels housed in their leather tool roll for at least 25
years. They are not my everyday chisels. Not a speck of rust. Even more
remarkable (if leather is going to be accused of contributing to rust) is my
dad’s WW II military issued knife, complete with belt-looped leather sheath.
This 80+ year old treasure has been removed from its sheath no more than 10
times in the last 60 years. Again, not a speck of rust. I assume the LN tool
roll is veggie tanned leather, but I have no idea what type the knife sheath is.

Since we both live in the SF Bay Area with similar climate conditions, I wonder
if something else may have contributed to your rust issues.

Stephen
273939 Thomas Conroy 2021‑06‑13 Re: VCI Paper
Stephen Rosenthal wrote:
"I’ve had a set of LN chisels housed in their leather tool roll for at least 25
years. They are not my everyday chisels. Not a speck of rust. Even more
remarkable (if leather is going to be accused of contributing to rust) is my
dad’s WW II military issued knife, complete with belt-looped leather sheath.
This 80+ year old treasure has been removed from its sheath no more than 10
times in the last 60 years. Again, not a speck of rust. I assume the LN tool
roll is veggie tanned leather, but I have no idea what type the knife sheath is.

"Since we both live in the SF Bay Area with similar climate conditions, I wonder
if something else may have contributed to your rust issues."



Certainly there other causes of rust in my house. I live directly over the
original course of one of Berkeley's culverted creeks; although the culvert (the
storm drain) now runs under the street next to my house, the land still goes
steeply uphill from me in three directions. For decades the house was shaded by
a large volunteer live oak that grew two feet from it and spread its canopy over
almost half the roof (This could be seen in Google's satellite photos). We only
got French drains a couple of years ago. The house is just slightly damp---
nothing serious, but slightly. The problem was worse during several decades when
there was effectively no heat in the house, and the humidity and heat cycled
grossly every day during winter. I have other dampness issues, for instance
persistent slight mildew on certain bookbindings--- again, not much and not
everything, but undeniably there. Contact with leather won't cause rust in
conditions of complete absence of moisture (or air); it just speeds things up
when moisture is there.


I have never had rust on every tool, or on much of any tool. And some of my
leather sheaths (or on-the-bench edge protectors) have not yet developed rust,
despite 30-plus years of use. But the first time you find rust (or mildew) it is
like the first time you find a flea in your bed: you feel vile, degraded,
ashamed. You wonder what you have done wrong, after so many years of noble
freedom from  filth. And you try to figure out what caused it. For my rust
issues, I saw that it occurred disproportionately on the the tools with leather
sheaths I made for them back in the 1980s. After the rust was removed from the
knifes it soon recurred in exactly the same spots and even shapes, and then I
dissected the sheaths and found deep rust stains and surface rust on the insides
of the sheaths. There was no way to remove it so I got rid of the sheaths, even
though I had made them properly with freehand awl-and-harness-needle saddle
stitch and was proud of them. I suspect that the difference between the sheaths
that developed rust and those that didn't was that I must have used the rusty
ones on damp days, so that removal of the knife and replacement in the sheath
pumped damp air into the sheath--- but that is just an onagered (wild-assed)
guess.


I was bolstered in my distrust of leather for storage when I learned that at
least some collectors of historic firearms don't keep their treasures in their
holsters, especially if the holsters are historic too, and old enough to have
accumulated acids from degradation or air pollution. Leather does absorb
corrosive air pollution, which is one of the main causes of decay of leather
bookbindings, as I know in far too much detail from professional knowledge of
book conservation. If anything I trust vegetable-tanned leather less than
chrome-tanned, since in book uses the veg-tanned leather is far more susceptible
to "red rot" and other decay, especially from air polluted sulfur oxides, which
are catalyzed into sulfuric acid in the leather


Rust behaves erratically and unpredictably, almost as if it were consciously
malicious. I once gave a demonstration of tool repair and rust removal for a
national hand bookbinding group, and I needed rusty spokeshaves and spring
dividers to demonstrate on (four repetitions so that all attendees could get a
close-up view). I couldn't find any rusty ones in several visits to the Alameda
Flea, so I decided to deliberately cause rust on some poor tools ones that I had
anyway. I couldn't get it to happen. I wet the spokeshaves and left them
overnight; then wet them and left them outside several days; then wet them and
left them half buried in the yard, and cover the bits that stuck out with dead
leaves. No rust. I had a year lead time, so there was plenty of opportunity to
experiment.  Eventually I managed to get a bit of rust on a few tools, enough to
serve as examples, and did my talk successfully. After that I started finding
rusty spokeshaves and spring dividers again.

Rust never sleeps, they say; but it sure naps at times, then wakes up again when
you least want it to. I prefer to act pessimistically, and don't use any leather
for tool storage.
Tom Conroy
Berkeley
273943 Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> 2021‑06‑14 Re: VCI Paper
Tom,

I'm going to file that in my future-use bit bucket!

Since the mid 1980s, I've been using a kindred concept uttered by an IBM
engineer when a reporter inquired how his team had developed a certain
idea. He replied that it was the product of SWAG research.  He later
clarified - Stupid Wild Assed Guess.

Tim
Feeding ducks in the backyard this rainy morning.

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 6:36 PM Thomas Conroy via groups.io  wrote:



-- but that is just an onagered (wild-assed) guess.

>
> 
>

Tom Conroy

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