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274271 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑03 crossbow project
Galoots

Summer time has rolled around, and with it, my usual penchant for taking on
an interesting project to while away the time whilst on holiday.
This year I was inspired by a video I saw from Tod's Workshop on youtube.
He was shooting a really basic crossbow, which he said was based on an
11th century French archaeological find (Colletière à Charavines).
He mentioned in his shooting video that he had done a build video too.
Ah, ok, that sounds interesting, so I looked it up (from like 3 years ago
it was).
He did a nice job on the video, and has good photos on his website,
where you can purchase said crossbow, or plans to build your own.
Well, in the SCA I play a woodworker, and I'm a galoot, so I'm not
gonna buy the plans or the crossbow, because the video and pictures
are sufficient for me. Or they should be, if my skills are worth anything.
The guy who made the original a thousand years ago probably had
no plans, just skills and experience. Let's Go!

His one measurement mentioned in the video, plus the pix is good
enough for me to scale the parts. His process description was
excellent, explaining how you need a full, complete growth ring on
the face of the prod (the bow part). Makes perfect sense. And his
use of a plane and spokeshave are quite familiar to us, right?
Tillering is a little foreign to me, but after making steam bent
stuff I have a pretty good idea of what's happening.

He used a 1m offcut of ash (old hand rail apparently) so I decided
that ash would be fine for me too.  I had my son help me pull the last
two big ash planks out from under the wood rack.  These are 19
inches wide, 8/4, 9 feet long. Huge by my standards. We inspected
the stock and found some really straight grain on the edge of one
that I figured I could use. We managed to hack a chunk off (my
apprentice and his apprentice, ha ha) that was a bit longer than I
needed.

It's basically riftsawn, grain at a diagonal, so I had to saw the corners
off to get the appropriate flatsawn stock for the prod. I tried using a
bowsaw for this, but gah!, it was sooo slow and difficult to keep to
the line. Switched to a Warranted Superior rip saw (8 TPI I think)
and that worked way better!  I ended up with a reasonable piece
of stock, and then proceeded to bring it down to the same growth
ring on one face all along its length. I got close with the drawknife,
too close in fact, cutting through my precious ring in two places.
Switched to the spokeshave, and that went far better.  Slower, but
safer, and now I have one ring along that face.

Not sure about the size of the rings on Tod's stock, they appear to be
thicker (faster growth) than mine. I count 8 rings per inch on mine,
and I think his might be 6, but I still have to scale the thickness of
the prod from the pix to be sure. In any case, I'm now to the point
where I need to start thinning the stock down, back to the drawknife!

I'll take pictures as I go, but right now it's just a big ole hunk o' wood.
Nothing to see here yet.

Darrell
--
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274272 galoot@l... 2021‑08‑03 Re: crossbow project
Quoting Darrell :

> Galoots
>
> Summer time has rolled around, and with it, my usual penchant for taking on
> an interesting project to while away the time whilst on holiday.
> This year I was inspired by a video I saw from Tod's Workshop on youtube.
> He was shooting a really basic crossbow, which he said was based on an
> 11th century French archaeological find (Colletière à Charavines).
> He mentioned in his shooting video that he had done a build video too.

(Balance planed within one growth ring...)

Iirc both you and Kathy are archers?  I seem to recall a Flemish
bowstring class several years ago where the instructor was bemused
that you didn't know the required length.

Sounds like the next Amazing Arts and Sciences Project when we can
finally visit again.

Esther
ska Otelia d'Alsace
274339 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑07 Re: crossbow project
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 23:56,  wrote:

> Quoting Darrell :
>
> > Galoots
> >
> > Summer time has rolled around, and with it, my usual penchant for taking
> on
> > an interesting project to while away the time whilst on holiday.
> > This year I was inspired by a video I saw from Tod's Workshop on youtube.
> > He was shooting a really basic crossbow, which he said was based on an
> > 11th century French archaeological find (Colletière à Charavines).
> > He mentioned in his shooting video that he had done a build video too.
>
> (Balance planed within one growth ring...)
>
>
>
It was quite a bit of work with a Disston rip saw and a drawknife
to get the blank I needed out of the riftsawn stock. I ended up
with what appeared to be a good piece of wood, and began working
it down to where it would start to actually bend.  I stopped to make
a simple tillering jig and filed some notches for a rope to test the
prod (archery jargon for the bow part of a crossbow).

After peeling off a couple more growth rings the prod started to
bend nicely, still too stiff, but I'd rather take this slow and accomplish
something gthan rush it and make kindling. And now the fun began
to happen.  One limb began to twist. Probably 15 degrees out of wind
now, and I am nowhere near done. Curses! This was such a nice stick,
why is it misbehaving like this?

At this point I don't think it will actually fulfill the function.
Can it be saved?  Anyone out there got any ideas?
Best I can come up with is to steam it, twist it back into
shape, and hope it will be OK once it dries.

Best laid plans and all that...
Darrell

-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274341 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2021‑08‑08 Re: crossbow project
Darrell said:
 "One limb began to twist. Probably 15 degrees out of wind
now, and I am nowhere near done. Curses! This was such a nice stick,
why is it misbehaving like this?"

Hey Darrell:
 The "why" may never be known. Maybe it's just rebalancing its moisture,
who knows?  It probably doesn't matter if you have parallel rings all the
way through the stock.
  I haven't steamed much, but I have used an old electric kettle with a bit
of old radiator hose and a piece of 4" aluminum downspout to jerry-rig a
steamer with rags as partial plugs for the ends.  An old blankey was the
insulation and a couple of drill holes for water drainage at the bottom on
the far end.  When it's all hot ( maybe an hour per inch of thickness? That
rings a bell, YMMV), you have about 5 minutes or less to clamp it into the
shape you want.  I had some plywood forms ready, but whatever you clamp to
has to be ready to go (not much time to fuss with clamps-- Everything has
to be set up and ready to go, working time is less than you think).
  If it's already 'kindling', you've got nothing to lose, right? It's
already useless, you can't possibly make it any worse, so I would steam it.
It doesn't take much time, and it might save your project.   Good luck,
Claudio in Waterloo
274342 Pete Leenhouts 2021‑08‑09 Re: crossbow project
Some thoughts from the boatbuilding world...Yes, 1 hour of steam per inch of
thickness. Wear gloves - the wood is very hot and will cause blisters (learned
that the hard way). Some other thoughts - before the stock goes into the
steamer, round off any squared edges along the grain with a plane - just a
single pass - so the wood will have less of a tendency to split; and, wipe the
wood down with dawn dish detergent - it makes it easier for the wood to bend.
When it comes out of the steamer, and if the wood is thick, use a metal strap
along the back of the bend to keep it from splintering. Be prepared to work
quickly (the thinner the stock, the less time you have), and let the wood dry
for 24-48 hours while in the form. With wood that is 3/4-inch thick, we learned
you might have as little as 60-90 seconds before the lignin begins to set and
the wood becomes difficult to bend without breaking.
Pete LeenhoutsPort Ludlow WA
274343 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑09 Re: crossbow project
Thanks Pete.

I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that.
I'm just imparting a twist, not a band, so backing straps etc are not an issue.
I'll give it a try next week and see what happens.
It's just kindling right now, and it this works, I have my project back!

Darrell


On 09/08/2021, Pete Leenhouts via groups.io
 wrote:

> Some thoughts from the boatbuilding world...Yes, 1 hour of steam per inch of
> thickness. Wear gloves - the wood is very hot and will cause blisters
> (learned that the hard way). Some other thoughts - before the stock goes
> into the steamer, round off any squared edges along the grain with a plane -
> just a single pass - so the wood will have less of a tendency to split; and,
> wipe the wood down with dawn dish detergent - it makes it easier for the
> wood to bend. When it comes out of the steamer, and if the wood is thick,
> use a metal strap along the back of the bend to keep it from splintering. Be
> prepared to work quickly (the thinner the stock, the less time you have),
> and let the wood dry for 24-48 hours while in the form. With wood that is
> 3/4-inch thick, we learned you might have as little as 60-90 seconds before
> the lignin begins to set and the wood becomes difficult to bend without
> breaking.
> Pete LeenhoutsPort Ludlow WA
>
>


-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274344 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2021‑08‑09 Re: crossbow project
On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:28 PM Darrell wrote:

> Thanks Pete.
>
> I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that.
>

Back when I was building an 1830s-style banjo and had to bend wood for the
hoop I soaked the wood in a fabric softener solution for a few days, which
apparently is still a thing. I'm not sure it helped, but the backing straps
definitely saved my bacon.

Brian
274345 Mark van Roojen <mvr1@e...> 2021‑08‑10 Re: crossbow project
Darrell wrote in response to Pete's suggestion:


>I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that.

The version of this I heard was fabric softener in the soak water.  I 
did try that once when I made a guitar years ago, out of claro 
walnut.  In that case I soaked the wood and then bent the thin wood 
over a heated pipe before sticking it in the mold.  I used a spray 
bottle to keep it wet.  That was 35 years ago so details are 
fuzzy.  Since I have only built one acoustic guitar I don't have a 
control to compare my results to.

- Mark
274346 Ed Hennessy 2021‑08‑10 Re: crossbow project
I use fabric softener and water to make veneer more pliable before glue up.
Glycerine also works. Not sure  the effects on thicker wood but I'd think it
worth a try.
Ed HennessyBuffalo, NY
274347 Thomas Conroy 2021‑08‑10 Re: crossbow project
Pete Leenhouts wrote:

"....wipe the wood down with dawn dish detergent - it makes it easier for the
wood to bend."

I would guess that this works because the dish liquid acts as a surfactant,
reducint the surface tension of the water, and allowing it t penetrate more
deeply between the fibers of the wood.
I was taught to lift the endpapers of a book with water with a drop of
surfactant in it; you paint the mixture on and wait a few minutes for the water
to soften the adhesive, then you can lift off the endpaper without (in theory)
damage. Its trickier than it looks, but to do the same thing with plain water
would take hours---the usual procedure with plain water is to submerge the
board, accepting destruction of the board for the sake of saving the endpaper. I
never liked the idea of using surfactant; my take was that however it is acting,
the surfactant remains in the paper afterwards, all ready to cause some kind of
trouble, maybe years lalter. Just a tiny amount of it, my teacher said, but it
is (I figured) something which has big effects in tiny amounts.
For paper and books, fortunately, there is another option: a mixture of alcohol
(just about any alcohol) with water will achieve the same end: the mixture
penetrates between the paper fibers, and although the alcohol evaporates out
quickly (leaving no residue), it leaves behind the water to soften the adhesive
(always paste or hot glue with an old book---modern books with synthetic
adhesives are a major problem). Unfortunately, I can't see how to apply the
alcohol mixture idea to hot steam bending. A pity.
Tom ConroyBerkeley
274407 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑22 Re: crossbow project
Galoots

So I spent some time last weekend with a camp stove and some handscrews
trying to untwist the crossbow prod I am working on.  My hope was that
boiling the wood might allow me to recast the twist so  that I could
continue with the project.  It seems to have worked.

This weekend I am busy figuring out how "tillering" works.
It's one of those woodworking things that's more art than skill
but you still need to be kinda skillful with the tools.  In this case
it's a Stanley #64 spokeshave.

I tried uploading a bunch of the pix on Groups.io.
See my album at https://groups.io/g/oldtools/album?id=267353
The tillering is going OK I think, but the curvature of the two
limbs isn't even. so I have a bit more work to do before starting
on the stock. And then I have to make a string for it. And the
trigger mechanism, that's gonna be right up there with "Interesting".


-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274430 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑28 Re: crossbow project
Galoots,

Last couple of evenings I've been working a bit on this crossbow.
Recall my tale of woe when the ash bow developed a twist, that
was resolved by a desperate attempt at wood-bending, and it
actually worked!  The bow bends just fine now, although my
idea of proper may not be what a bowyer would consider so.
I'm given to understand that tillering a bow is more art than
science, but that's what bending wood is like too, and I found
that that is not beyond my grasp. And so I trust that my first
attempt at tillering is at least good enough to function.

I went through the wood pile and found a nice bent piece of
mulberry for the trigger.  The grain flows nicely around the curve.
That'll make it plenty strong enough.

The bolt groove was made with a small plow followed by a #4
round plane. The whole thing was given a coat of orange shellac
to keep some of the dirt and weather off of it.

My work at splicing and serving the strap to hold the bow to the
stock is also somewhat unskilled. Downright ugly, but once
again I hope that it will be sufficient. My skills at fletching are
also somewhat suspect. Damn, with all the first-time, half-assed,
best-guess stuff involved in this project I'll be lucky if I can fire off
all three of the bolts I made before something self-destructs.
I guess this is more of that "workmanship of risk" eh?

I've added some more pictures to the groups.io album.
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/album?id=267353

Kathy and I are going to a local SCA archery practice on Sunday,
so I get to try shooting this thing. I will definitely get some photos
of that!

Darrell
-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274435 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2021‑08‑28 Re: crossbow project
Brother Darrell:
Gadzooks man, have you used a metal nail as a pivot for your trigger?  A
nail?? Not a wooden peg?  I fear you shall be shunned by the guild if the
judges see that (lol).
 The fletching looks good, I like the pleasing shape and colors but I don’t
know enough to see why you criticize your work?  The bolts look great to
me, but considering your name, we should call them Darrell quarrels.
 Cheers
Claudio
274436 Stager, Scott P. <StagerS@m...> 2021‑08‑28 Re: crossbow project
Trigger/firing question:

Looks like the string (don’t know correct word :0) just hooks over the notch in
the stock.  Does that mean that the bolts do not have nocks, and that the
trigger just pushes the string up off the notch where it “slams” into the
waiting bolt?  If so, is that a bit iffy whether it might “miss” the bolt?  And
what keeps the bolt from falling off if the crossbow isn’t kept nicely
horizontal?

Overall it looks pretty cool and should go over great at SCA events.

—Scott (the one in Missouri)

On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:55 PM, Darrell via groups.io<http://groups.io>
mailto:larchmont479=gmail.com@g...>> wrote:

Kathy and I are going to a local SCA archery practice on Sunday,
so I get to try shooting this thing. I will definitely get some photos
of that!




---------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia MO
573-474-5955 home
573-424-4764 cell
stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>
274438 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑28 Re: crossbow project
Hi Scott

Your analysis is correct, the string just pops up out of the notch and hits
the bolt. No nock on the bolt. I was watching the utube video from Tod’s
Workshop where he was shooting one of these things. To keep the bolt in
place whilst shooting off horizontal he just held down the end of the bolt
with his thumb. The string apparently did not catch his thumb as it went,
or maybe he’s got lots of calluses. I will find out tomorrow.

Maybe I will bring some tape with me to wrap around my bruised and abraded
thumb.


On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 9:14 AM Stager, Scott P. 
wrote:

> Trigger/firing question:
>
> Looks like the string (don’t know correct word :0) just hooks over the
> notch in the stock.  Does that mean that the bolts do not have nocks, and
> that the trigger just pushes the string up off the notch where it “slams”
> into the waiting bolt?  If so, is that a bit iffy whether it might “miss”
> the bolt?  And what keeps the bolt from falling off if the crossbow isn’t
> kept nicely horizontal?
>
> Overall it looks pretty cool and should go over great at SCA events.
>
> —Scott (the one in Missouri)
>
> On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:55 PM, Darrell via groups.io<http://groups.io>
> mailto:larchmont479=gmail.com@g...>>
> wrote:
>
> Kathy and I are going to a local SCA archery practice on Sunday,
> so I get to try shooting this thing. I will definitely get some photos
> of that!
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Scott Stager
> Columbia MO
> 573-474-5955 home
> 573-424-4764 cell
> stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
> --
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274455 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑30 Re: Crossbow project
Galoots

So last night I was showing a few of you my recently (as in finish
isn't dry yet) completed crossbow project.  It's not particularly powerful,
speculation being that the Medieval original was for small game at
fairly close range.  This afternoon we went to a local archery practice
where I could give my new toy a try.

It works! Nothing fell apart or got too loose or broke. I am quite
pleased with how this turned out. I need to practice a fair bit with it
before I can get anywhere near accurate.

http://galootopedia.com/old-tools_wiki/images/thumb/9/95/IMG-2493.PNG/800px-
IMG-2493.PNG

You can see the bolt in the air in the picture, about halfway to the
target, which is at a mere 10 yards. I'm really happy with the tool
I made with a bunch of wood and some old tools. Now I need to
make a few more quarrels so I can reduce the number of times I
have to walk to and fro at the range.

Darrell
-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
274460 Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> 2021‑08‑30 Re: Crossbow project
That is outstanding!  It is good that you pointed out the bolt in mid-air.
My old eyes missed that on the first glance. The nice fletching work made
it easy to locate the bolt.

I wonder if using a waxed bow string might eke a bit more power due to
reduced friction.  My 6' long bow strings are quieter and last longer when
I make them with waxed string.

Nice project!

Tim
Feeling motivated to take out my long bow and miss some targets...
274467 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2021‑08‑31 Re: Crossbow project
That’s awesome Darrell!  Is there anything you would have made differently
now that you’ve used it a bit?  I went down the rabbit hole this morning to
discover that there are plenty of videos on making crossbows and all the
accoutrements on the inter webs.
Cheers from Waterloo
Claudio
274474 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2021‑08‑31 Re: Crossbow project
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 6:30 AM Claudio DeLorenzi 
wrote:

> That’s awesome Darrell!  Is there anything you would have made differently
> now that you’ve used it a bit?  I went down the rabbit hole this morning to
> discover that there are plenty of videos on making crossbows and all the
> accoutrements on the inter webs.
> Cheers from Waterloo
> Claudio
>

Good question, but not one that I have a good answer for. The biggest
challenges were not having any measurements beyond the 99 cm length of the
prod (the bow part), and learning how to tiller the thing.

I didn’t go any further into that rabbit hole than I did because I thought
what I had found was “enough” and knew that if I kept digging I would end
up with way too many choices. That way lies madness.

One thing I want to try is making a better string. Mine is much skinnier
than a normal crossbow string. That might be affecting the performance but
I won’t know until I experiment more with it.

I’ll be back at the range on the weekend, and will see what happens after a
few hundred rounds.

Darrell

-- 
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

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