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276159 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑08‑16 Exhaustion at the Flea Market
GG's,

Inspired by Tony, I want to share two terms I've made up to describe exhaustion
at the Flea Market:

1) "The Flea Market Death March" - You've unexpectedly come upon something heavy
out by the back row of a multi-acred Flea Market. It's a very hot, humid, and
dusty day. There's no possibility of bringing your car any closer. Since you
didn't expect to find anything heavy, you have no cart.

So, you grasp the item and start walking. It seems to gain mass as you move.

I created this term several years ago while carrying a greasy 13" lathe
faceplate out to the front parking field from the back fence of the weekly
Englishtown NJ Flea Market, a.k.a. "The Dirt Mall."   At the time, they had
about 40 acres.

Adding to the physical exercise, I was wearing clothes that I did not wish to
sully with grease, so I had to hold it away from my
body!

Oh, and I had a steel pin in a broken finger at the time.

2) "AFMO - All Flea Marketed Out" Pronounced "Aff-Moe".  This is more of a
mental exhaustion or an exhaustion of the Galoot spirit rather than a physical
one. You just can't bring yourself to go through one more box of rust or even
carefully peruse one more table. You've "had it."  Forcing yourself into
exploration will likely result in regrettable purchases; you'll fail to notice
some damage or a missing part.

 Perhaps others will find these terms useful.

John Ruth
Metuchen, NJ
( Within an hour's drive of several regional-class weekly Flea Markets. )
276160 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑08‑16 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
"The Flea Market Death March" - a wonderful term that can describe any
outing where a bench vise is picked up for a "steal".   Memories of a
certain Flea Bagger lugging a post vice on his shoulder for an extended
period come flooding back.

-Paul, in SF, who's finally got that mystery wood kitchen table in pieces
as of last night.
276161 Kirk Eppler 2022‑08‑16 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
Or two of them carrying it crossways down the aisle.
KE

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 7:40 AM Paul Gardner  wrote:

> "The Flea Market Death March" - a wonderful term that can describe any
> outing where a bench vise is picked up for a "steal".   Memories of a
> certain Flea Bagger lugging a post vice on his shoulder for an extended
> period come flooding back.
>
> -Paul, in SF, who's finally got that mystery wood kitchen table in pieces
> as of last night.
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Ruth  wrote:
>
> > GG's,
> >
> > Inspired by Tony, I want to share two terms I've made up to describe
> > exhaustion at the Flea Market:
> >
> > 1) "The Flea Market Death March" - You've unexpectedly come upon
> something
> > heavy out by the back row of a multi-acred Flea Market. It's a very hot,
> > humid, and dusty day. There's no possibility of bringing your car any
> > closer. Since you didn't expect to find anything heavy, you have no cart.
> >
> > So, you grasp the item and start walking. It seems to gain mass as you
> > move.
> >
> > I created this term several years ago while carrying a greasy 13" lathe
> > faceplate out to the front parking field from the back fence of the
> weekly
> > Englishtown NJ Flea Market, a.k.a. "The Dirt Mall."   At the time, they
> had
> > about 40 acres.
> >
> > Adding to the physical exercise, I was wearing clothes that I did not
> wish
> > to sully with grease, so I had to hold it away from my
> > body!
> >
> > Oh, and I had a steel pin in a broken finger at the time.
> >
> > 2) "AFMO - All Flea Marketed Out" Pronounced "Aff-Moe".  This is more of
> a
> > mental exhaustion or an exhaustion of the Galoot spirit rather than a
> > physical one. You just can't bring yourself to go through one more box of
> > rust or even carefully peruse one more table. You've "had it."  Forcing
> > yourself into exploration will likely result in regrettable purchases;
> > you'll fail to notice some damage or a missing part.
> >
> >  Perhaps others will find these terms useful.
> >
> > John Ruth
> > Metuchen, NJ
> > ( Within an hour's drive of several regional-class weekly Flea Markets. )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
>
>
> --
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
276164 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2022‑08‑16 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
three of them!

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:21 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io  wrote:
276165 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2022‑08‑16 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
With a 4th galoot breaking the crowd ahead. Once the group got moving, that
vise was heavy enough it was hard to stop short!

Michael-preparing for a blacksmith Hammer in this weekend

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 9:17 AM Bill Kasper  wrote:

> three of them!
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:21 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io  gene.com@g...> wrote:
>
> > Or two of them carrying it crossways down the aisle.
> > KE
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 7:40 AM Paul Gardner  wrote:
> >
> > > "The Flea Market Death March" - a wonderful term that can describe any
> > > outing where a bench vise is picked up for a "steal".   Memories of a
> > > certain Flea Bagger lugging a post vice on his shoulder for an extended
> > > period come flooding back.
> > >
> > > -Paul, in SF, who's finally got that mystery wood kitchen table in
> pieces
> > > as of last night.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Ruth 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > GG's,
> > > >
> > > > Inspired by Tony, I want to share two terms I've made up to describe
> > > > exhaustion at the Flea Market:
> > > >
> > > > 1) "The Flea Market Death March" - You've unexpectedly come upon
> > > something
> > > > heavy out by the back row of a multi-acred Flea Market. It's a very
> > hot,
> > > > humid, and dusty day. There's no possibility of bringing your car any
> > > > closer. Since you didn't expect to find anything heavy, you have no
> > cart.
> > > >
> > > > So, you grasp the item and start walking. It seems to gain mass as
> you
> > > > move.
> > > >
> > > > I created this term several years ago while carrying a greasy 13"
> lathe
> > > > faceplate out to the front parking field from the back fence of the
> > > weekly
> > > > Englishtown NJ Flea Market, a.k.a. "The Dirt Mall."   At the time,
> they
> > > had
> > > > about 40 acres.
> > > >
> > > > Adding to the physical exercise, I was wearing clothes that I did not
> > > wish
> > > > to sully with grease, so I had to hold it away from my
> > > > body!
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and I had a steel pin in a broken finger at the time.
> > > >
> > > > 2) "AFMO - All Flea Marketed Out" Pronounced "Aff-Moe".  This is more
> > of
> > > a
> > > > mental exhaustion or an exhaustion of the Galoot spirit rather than a
> > > > physical one. You just can't bring yourself to go through one more
> box
> > of
> > > > rust or even carefully peruse one more table. You've "had it."
> Forcing
> > > > yourself into exploration will likely result in regrettable
> purchases;
> > > > you'll fail to notice some damage or a missing part.
> > > >
> > > >  Perhaps others will find these terms useful.
> > > >
> > > > John Ruth
> > > > Metuchen, NJ
> > > > ( Within an hour's drive of several regional-class weekly Flea
> > Markets. )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
>
>
> --
Michael
276196 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑08‑19 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
What's the term for spending the last hour searching for that table you 
saw six hours ago and finally talked yourself into buying that one item 
you passed on (provided it was still there) and can never find the table 
again?
276197 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑08‑19 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
Hmmm, we'll have to make up a term for this specific symptom of AFMO.  But,
surely, we've all done this. It's clearly a result of mental saturation.

Let's just say that if you see something you like at a Flea, pick it up and
DON'T PUT IT BACK DOWN until you are absolutely certain that you aren't going to
buy it!!! Why? Because I'm right behind you, waiting for you to put it down
without purchasing it, whereupon it becomes fair game!!!

'Nother tip: Don't examine it too closely until you agree on a price!  The price
goes up if the vendor thinks you find the item truly interesting!

John Ruth
Still smarting over losing out on a 19th-Century die plate by stepping away in a
moment of indecision, whereupon another shopper bought it !
276199 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
>What's the term for spending the last hour searching for that table you
>saw six hours ago and finally talked yourself into buying that one item
>you passed on (provided it was still there) and can never find the table
>again?

I've heard tale of these "ghost stalls" before.  Story has it you come
across them early, before sunrise, when the only thing guiding you is the
dim setting (out of respect for others) of your headlamp LED.  These tables
will typically be captained by some unusual salt with a name like Todd or
summat  who imparts the uncanny feeling (despite repeatedly referring to
himself as just a "slowhead") that  he knows way more about the item you're
interested in than he lets on.  And if you try to lowball him on price, he
may ask to examine it again, feigning ignorance, and then suddenly fling it
further than humanly possible into an overgrown field or into the dark
waters of the adjacent container ship canal... then gives you a knowing
wink that leaves you both dumbfounded and terrified.  You make a vow to
loop back later in the day and catch him when he's more desperate to deal,
only to find you can't find the space again.

I've never experienced this myself because I have this special app called
"Hey Kirk!".  You simply say, "Hey Kirk, where did we see (describe item
here)" and like magic it will come up with the isle number (and
probably geo coordinates if you really need them).  It's the kind of
resource you only read about in PG Wodehouse stories.  But you can only use
it on the West coast and occasionally in Ohio.

-Paul, in SF, heading down for some Friday night shop time.
276200 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
These are great John and I look forward to adding them into the Flea Bag
lexicon.  Not sure if you've heard of it before but we have a flea market
term called the "Kasper Fade".  It's more of a maneuver really.  It's when
one person peels off discreetly but with purpose (think of "missing man
formation" except performed laterally) to scoop up some item that eluded
the pattern recognition radar of the greater group.  Named after the master
of the art.

-Paul, in SF
276201 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
Paul,

I really like the term "ghost stall" or "ghost table", as it may be.  Not only
has the left-behind tool disappeared, but even the stall itself cannot be found!

One of my buddies learned the hard way not to get too involved with less
rare/valuable items when better pickings might be available just steps away,
especially not when you are with a flea market veteran.

He was dumbfounded when I held out the large Translucent White Hard Arkansas
stone in its original box. I'd picked it out of a "box of rust" for $5.  Found
it while he was closely examining a table that just didn't look very promising
to me.

I tell my companions "Keep the scan going!" Just like an airplane pilot
constantly scanning the skies and the instruments!

Speaking of stones, I picked up a worn but useable Belgian Coticule blue &
yellow razor hone a few weeks back for $1.  This is only the second Coticule
stone I've ever seen in years of hunting. ( The other is an irregular
quadrilateral whose longest side is only about 4-1/2". )

Sometimes, stuff just "gets away".  Years back I was in an overpriced antique
shop in the [Raritan] bayside town of Keyport. There was a good-sized stone in a
mortised wooden base. The base apparently had some age on it.  The price tag
made me pass it up......much later, as I was falling asleep that night, it
suddenly occurred to me that that stone was BLUE, as in "possible Coticule".  I
went back as soon as I could, and of course the stone had already been sold !!!

I'll never know if an actual 8" Coticule slipped through my fingers, or if it
was just some less-desireable type of blue-colored stone.  The point, if there
is one, is that I didn't adequately examine it before passing it by.

 John Ruth
276202 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
This reminds me of another time honored tradition that usually occurs
around Galootaclaus season where one of the party clearly is torn about
purchasing an item but reluctantly passes.  Ten isles on he thinks better
about it and quickly loops back to the stall ready to purchase, only to
find the item has been snapped up!  It’s with a mixture of glee and pathos
we now get to witness the self flagellation of the poor fella knowing he
will shortly be receiving the very item for Christmas from a fellow galoot.
Brutal but fun.

Paul
276203 michael petre <petre.mic@g...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
John,

the blue stone could also have been a Welsh slate, a Thuringian, a
Frankonian or a lesser known metamorphic rock hone... there were many
lesser known quarries providing decent quality hones. I have a yet
unidentified mystery metamorphic hone fragment that came in a tool chest I
purchased a few years ago. The tool chest (nail and rabbet construction)
came from the Belgian Ardennes, made it through both world wars and somehow
survived 50 years in storage before reaching me. The son of the craftsman
was happy to know the tools would be restored and put to use in a workshop.
It was an interesting mix of 19th and early 20th century makers, plus a few
custom tools made by the original owner.

As I keep telling my wife, the rules of the flea market are simple: "if you
put it down, it's gone"

Michael
276204 Phil E. <pedgerton66@g...> 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
Maybe "A hay stack looking for a needle"?

Phil E.
276205 Tony Seo 2022‑08‑20 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
On 8/19/2022 7:40 PM, John Ruth wrote:
> Hmmm, we'll have to make up a term for this specific symptom of AFMO.  But,
surely, we've all done this. It's clearly a result of mental saturation.
>
> Let's just say that if you see something you like at a Flea, pick it up and
DON'T PUT IT BACK DOWN until you are absolutely certain that you aren't going to
buy it!!! Why? Because I'm right behind you, waiting for you to put it down
without purchasing it, whereupon it becomes fair game!!!

Well around these here parts, there are at any time 4 or 5 guys at
least, out looking for tools, and that doesn't include the Fastbuck
Freddies that sell anything that they can get on eBay. Even in the wee
hours of the early morning, if I see it, I grab it.

Sometimes I get burned when the condition turns out to be less than
desirable, but seeing as how, at least at the local flea markets, few
old tools are showing up these days, I have to take the chance.  I got
more, volume wise, up at Madison-Bouchville this past week, than I have
gotten at all the local markets combined for the entire summer to date.

Tony (and it's looking to be a VERY long winter...sigh)

--
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
276206 Kirk Eppler 2022‑08‑21 Re: Exhaustion at the Flea Market
Oops, this was supposed to send Saturday morning.

The only thing worse than the ghost stall Paul describes, is the other
“ghost stall”, where you buy something large, awkward, or heavy, or two or
all three, ask to leave it for pickup later, and then at the hour of
departure, can no longer find the stall.  After spending time looking for
it, you realize you’ve passed it several times, not realizing the stall has
reconfigured due to selling so much stuff.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, off to a citywide garage sale today north of me.
Wondering if we shouldn’t the phenom call it Bill’S Stall.



On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 5:29 PM Paul Gardner  wrote:

> >What's the term for spending the last hour searching for that table you
> >saw six hours ago and finally talked yourself into buying that one item
> >you passed on (provided it was still there) and can never find the table
> >again?
>
> I've heard tale of these "ghost stalls" before.  Story has it you come
> across them early, before sunrise, when the only thing guiding you is the
> dim setting (out of respect for others) of your headlamp LED.  These tables
> will typically be captained by some unusual salt with a name like Todd or
> summat  who imparts the uncanny feeling (despite repeatedly referring to
> himself as just a "slowhead") that  he knows way more about the item you're
> interested in than he lets on.  And if you try to lowball him on price, he
> may ask to examine it again, feigning ignorance, and then suddenly fling it
> further than humanly possible into an overgrown field or into the dark
> waters of the adjacent container ship canal... then gives you a knowing
> wink that leaves you both dumbfounded and terrified.  You make a vow to
> loop back later in the day and catch him when he's more desperate to deal,
> only to find you can't find the space again.

-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
276214 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
You want bizarre?  "Stanley Sweetheart chisels, set of 8, available at
Home Depot.  All bearing the 750 marking: 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Sweetheart-750-Series-Socket-Wood-Chisel-
Set-8-Piece-16-793/203710894


Mike in Woodland
276215 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Mike wrote:

> You want bizarre?  "Stanley Sweetheart chisels, set of 8, available at
> Home Depot.  All bearing the 750 marking: 
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Sweetheart-750-Series-Socket-Wood-Chisel-
Set-8-Piece-16-793/203710894

Oh, I'd like to know how close these are to true equivalency to the oldies!

1) How HARD are they? Most modern chisels are tempered to a hardness such that
they will bend before they snap. This is to prevent lawsuits by "Freddy
Allthumbs" who lost an eye after using a chisel to pry open a paint can. _Notice
that No Rc number is given_!!!

( Many US-made chisels sold under various private brands such as Craftsman and
Buck Brothers all came from a New England factory owned by Great Neck.  [Source:
One of the Taunton books. Your mission is to jog my memory by identifying which
book. ]. The steel was said to be chemically correct, but not tempered to the
correct hardness. Difficult to reharden/retemper due to non-removable plastic
handles. )

2) Where are they made? Any nation can make good stuff, but some are more in the
habit of quality than others.

Scott wrote a sentence with an excellent bit of Galoot humor which I've not seen
mentioned in recent years:

>> ...Swan, Whitherby, Doc Barton and the other "best there ever was" chisels


I do hope the newer members of the Porch "got" Scott's reference to Doc Barton.
This was something that gave us a chuckle years ago when the 'Bay had a bunch of
sellers who misread "D. R. Barton" as "Dr. Barton," thus creating a mythical
chisel maker.

I still chuckle over that one when I find a D. R. Barton at the fleas.

As a sort of BTW, I'd include L & IJ White among the old time makers of good
chisels. What say?

John Ruth
Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with the socket
mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent.
276216 Ray S. <rsheley@r...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
I live near Rochester NY and run into D.R. Barton tools on occasion, interesting
history.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of John Ruth
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2022 8:53 AM
To: Michael Blair 
Cc: scottg@s...; oldtools@g...
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Chisel Pricing confusion

Mike wrote:

> You want bizarre?  "Stanley Sweetheart chisels, set of 8, available 
> at Home Depot.  All bearing the 750 marking:
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Sweetheart-750-Series-Socket-Wood-
> Chisel-Set-8-Piece-16-793/203710894

Oh, I'd like to know how close these are to true equivalency to the oldies!

1) How HARD are they? Most modern chisels are tempered to a hardness such that
they will bend before they snap. This is to prevent lawsuits by "Freddy
Allthumbs" who lost an eye after using a chisel to pry open a paint can. _Notice
that No Rc number is given_!!!

( Many US-made chisels sold under various private brands such as Craftsman and
Buck Brothers all came from a New England factory owned by Great Neck.  [Source:
One of the Taunton books. Your mission is to jog my memory by identifying which
book. ]. The steel was said to be chemically correct, but not tempered to the
correct hardness. Difficult to reharden/retemper due to non-removable plastic
handles. )

2) Where are they made? Any nation can make good stuff, but some are more in the
habit of quality than others.

Scott wrote a sentence with an excellent bit of Galoot humor which I've not seen
mentioned in recent years:

>> ...Swan, Whitherby, Doc Barton and the other "best there ever was" 
>> chisels


I do hope the newer members of the Porch "got" Scott's reference to Doc Barton.
This was something that gave us a chuckle years ago when the 'Bay had a bunch of
sellers who misread "D. R. Barton" as "Dr. Barton," thus creating a mythical
chisel maker.

I still chuckle over that one when I find a D. R. Barton at the fleas.

As a sort of BTW, I'd include L & IJ White among the old time makers of good
chisels. What say?

John Ruth
Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with the socket
mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent.
276217 galoot@l... 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Quoting John Ruth 
> John Ruth
> Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with  
> the socket mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent

Hey, if you can get it cheap, buck or two, grab it!  Galoot Darrell  
LaRue has made a few spears from them for the SCA sport of thrown  
weapons, basically throwing anything that will stick into a log round.  
  Ken Wright and I have been dipping our toes into it and incidentally  
greasing the galoot slope for the guy who hosts the local practices in  
his back yard.  Between the three of us we could probably recycle a  
number of abused chisels into a new and different life. ;-)

Might even start a fad in the kingdom given enough abused rescue chisels.

Esther
Who had a lovely pennsic but managed to break a Darrell turned mallet  
whopping a hachet into splitting some supposedly green ash.  It is a  
strange thing to see a handle at a serious angle to the head and  
realise lengthwise fibers are bending and breaking.
276218 gtgrouch@r... 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Absolutely! I'll see your L&IJ White and raise you a Douglass . . .

But my favorite is Charles Buck.

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
sort of on the west end of NY tool manufacturing

	-----------------------------------------From: "John Ruth" 
To: "Michael Blair"
Cc: scottg@s..., oldtools@g...
Sent: Tuesday August 23 2022 8:52:51AM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Chisel Pricing confusion

 Mike wrote:

 > You want bizarre? "Stanley Sweetheart chisels, set of 8,
available at
 > Home Depot. All bearing the 750 marking:
 >
 >
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Sweetheart-750-Series-Socket-Wood-Chisel-
Set-8-Piece-16-793/203710894
 />
 Oh, I'd like to know how close these are to true equivalency to the
oldies!

 1) How HARD are they? Most modern chisels are tempered to a hardness
such that they will bend before they snap. This is to prevent lawsuits
by "Freddy Allthumbs" who lost an eye after using a chisel to pry open
a paint can. _Notice that No Rc number is given_!!!

 ( Many US-made chisels sold under various private brands such as
Craftsman and Buck Brothers all came from a New England factory owned
by Great Neck. [Source: One of the Taunton books. Your mission is to
jog my memory by identifying which book. ]. The steel was said to be
chemically correct, but not tempered to the correct hardness.
Difficult to reharden/retemper due to non-removable plastic handles. )

 2) Where are they made? Any nation can make good stuff, but some are
more in the habit of quality than others.

 Scott wrote a sentence with an excellent bit of Galoot humor which
I've not seen mentioned in recent years:

 >> ...Swan, Whitherby, Doc Barton and the other "best there ever was"
chisels

 I do hope the newer members of the Porch "got" Scott's reference to
Doc Barton. This was something that gave us a chuckle years ago when
the 'Bay had a bunch of sellers who misread "D. R. Barton" as "Dr.
Barton," thus creating a mythical chisel maker.

 I still chuckle over that one when I find a D. R. Barton at the
fleas.

 As a sort of BTW, I'd include L & IJ White among the old time makers
of good chisels. What say?

 John Ruth
 Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with the
socket mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent.

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
276219 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
The first rule of chisel club is you don't talk about chisel club and
definitely don't tell people about Douglass and Charles Buck! Let them go
for Stanley!

Sadly I am sitting on 10 year old research I've done about Douglass (and
some great updates on Witherby) that I haven't been able to get published
on my website. Like most projects in my life it is 95% finished.

Brian
276220 Ray S. <rsheley@r...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
What prompted my recent search was the purchase of a chisel lot of (4) decent
plastic handled user chisels, accompanied by the 1/2" Stanley 750 (?), and a
1/4" Buck pig sticker.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of gtgrouch@r...
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2022 11:13 AM
To: 'John Ruth' 
Cc: 'Michael Blair' ; 'scottg@s...' ;
'oldtools@g...' 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Chisel Pricing confusion

Absolutely! I'll see your L&IJ White and raise you a Douglass . . .

But my favorite is Charles Buck.

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
sort of on the west end of NY tool manufacturing

	-----------------------------------------From: "John Ruth" 
To: "Michael Blair"
Cc: scottg@s..., oldtools@g...
Sent: Tuesday August 23 2022 8:52:51AM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Chisel Pricing confusion

 Mike wrote:

 > You want bizarre? "Stanley Sweetheart chisels, set of 8, available at  >
Home Depot. All bearing the 750 marking:
 >
 >
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Sweetheart-750-Series-Socket-Wood-Chisel-
Set-8-Piece-16-793/203710894
 />
 Oh, I'd like to know how close these are to true equivalency to the oldies!

 1) How HARD are they? Most modern chisels are tempered to a hardness such that
they will bend before they snap. This is to prevent lawsuits by "Freddy
Allthumbs" who lost an eye after using a chisel to pry open a paint can. _Notice
that No Rc number is given_!!!

 ( Many US-made chisels sold under various private brands such as Craftsman and
Buck Brothers all came from a New England factory owned by Great Neck. [Source:
One of the Taunton books. Your mission is to jog my memory by identifying which
book. ]. The steel was said to be chemically correct, but not tempered to the
correct hardness.
Difficult to reharden/retemper due to non-removable plastic handles. )

 2) Where are they made? Any nation can make good stuff, but some are more in
the habit of quality than others.

 Scott wrote a sentence with an excellent bit of Galoot humor which I've not
seen mentioned in recent years:

 >> ...Swan, Whitherby, Doc Barton and the other "best there ever was"
chisels

 I do hope the newer members of the Porch "got" Scott's reference to Doc Barton.
This was something that gave us a chuckle years ago when the 'Bay had a bunch of
sellers who misread "D. R. Barton" as "Dr.
Barton," thus creating a mythical chisel maker.

 I still chuckle over that one when I find a D. R. Barton at the fleas.

 As a sort of BTW, I'd include L & IJ White among the old time makers of good
chisels. What say?

 John Ruth
 Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with the socket
mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent.

 



Links:
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[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
276221 Thomas Conroy 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
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John Ruth wrote: "As a sort of BTW, I'd include L & IJ White among the old time
makers of good chisels. What say?"
Absolutely; White is probably my favorite maker among the great ones. Bartons
are hens teeth out here (Northern California); I feel sick being told about
Barton chisels being reground into SCA spears, they are rare and expensive
enough that I only have one, a shortish 7/8" bench chisel that may be the very
best I have, and when I was buying actively a year or two ago they were starting
to top $80.00 on eBay--- and worth it, I'd say, but I can't afford them.
Anything marked "cast steel," in fact; I have some made by the mystery toolmaker
Robert Duke that I haven't had a chance to use yet, but if sharpening tells you
anything they aretight up there in the top league. Witherbys are only
occasionally marked "cast steel" but clearly are cast steel, apart from a small
number of what I judge to be post-WWII examples in HSS or chrome-vanadium (I
believe they had a factory fire around 1950, and didn't last for long after
that).

There is a gradient of hardness from Buck Cast Steel to Swan/Douglass. I prefer
the easily-sharpened end of the spectrum (Buck CS) to the horrible-to-sharpen
end (Swan), since I believe that too hard a chisel leads you to put up with a
half-dull chisel for longer than you should (this is, to my mind, the big
fallacy with the modern taste for ultra-hard blades up around 611 9r 62 Rc).
Lucky for me that I like Buck CS, since they are by far the commonest chisels
worth buying on eBay. With Buck you just have to avoid the post-1940 crap, and
that is basically a matter of getting only the ones marked "cast steel." In the
early post-war years Buck did make a few first rate chisels that weren't marked
"cast steel," but there is no way to identify them short of buying, sharpening,
and using them. Life is too short. Charles Buck, before he died in 1905, had a
reputation as good as his brothers; but I've had a series of disappointment with
Charles Buck, and I'm rather off of him (in fairness, I have other Charles Buck
chisels as good as any).
And there are slightly later makers whose work is no disgrace, and hardware-
store brands made by the best makers. Pexto (marked variously) chisels are for
some reason fairly common in my neck of the woods. Greenlee are common on eBay
but not here; I suspect that Greenlee was the last old maker of chisels worth
buying, maybe into the 1960s or even 1970s. I have a number of chisels and
braces marked "Worth," a brand used by one of the big hardware retailers; these
were clearly (from shape and steel) made by Pexto, and are as good as their
uncloseted siblings. Personally I like Pexto better than Greenlee, since their
shapes are a bit less high-regulation anal-retentive machine-aesthetics rigid;
but that is aesthetic taste. "Everlastings", both original and Stanley, are
first-rate if you can adjust to the heavy handles and the short lengths of the
ones that bubble up in the wild. Even 720s and 750s are worth having and using,
if you get theme cheap, which you no longer can. My first good chisel was a
1-1/2" unmarked 750, and after four decades it is still one of the few go-to
chisiels racked on my bench top.

I agree in bewilderment over the choice of the 750 to be copied by Lie-Nielson,
and the consequent fad for them among other makers and users. They aren't that
good; no disgrace on the bench, but not that good. Even more, the Lie-Nielson
copy puzzles me because of its weird balance and excessive weight. They copied
the profile of the 750, but exaggerated the taper in thickness in a way that
increases the weight substantially and throws it all back toward the hand.nMy
instinct is that this would be hard to control and tiring if used all day, but I
have no real evidence about that. I wonder what the neo-StanleySW did about
balance. And about flatness of the back, one of the main things  you should be
getting when you pay for a premium chisel.
Running out of steam---and I don't even have a tree growing through my engine
Tom ConroyBerkeley
276222 gary allan may 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
GGs---
  
Might be instructive for those among us who have a particular 'axe to grind' to
name the names of old chisels and chisel manufacturers that make indifferent
quality or actually no-good iron, if anyone knows of any.  I still hear someone
yelling 'ESKILTUNA' whenever the subject of chisels comes up, as if they're
palpably superior, but in my experience, they're very fine and in no way
superior to a dozen other brands I've spent time using. I think the little
sharks are pretty cool, when they sport 'em but I SO prefer the Preston logo and
the C E Jennings Arrowhead.

                                  could be good; gam in OlyWA 


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 06:38:06 AM PDT, galoot@l... 
wrote:
 
 Quoting John Ruth 
> John Ruth
> Still somewhat saddened when finding a quality socket chisel with  
> the socket mushroomed into unusablity or entirely absent

Hey, if you can get it cheap, buck or two, grab it!  Galoot Darrell  
LaRue has made a few spears from them for the SCA sport of thrown  
weapons, basically throwing anything that will stick into a log round.  
  Ken Wright and I have been dipping our toes into it and incidentally  
greasing the galoot slope for the guy who hosts the local practices in  
his back yard.  Between the three of us we could probably recycle a  
number of abused chisels into a new and different life. ;-)

Might even start a fad in the kingdom given enough abused rescue chisels.

Esther
Who had a lovely pennsic but managed to break a Darrell turned mallet  
whopping a hachet into splitting some supposedly green ash.  It is a  
strange thing to see a handle at a serious angle to the head and  
realise lengthwise fibers are bending and breaking.
276223 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
GG's,

" I feel sick being told about Barton chisels being reground into SCA spears,
they are rare..."

I wrote, or at least _tried_ to write, about socket chisels which have been
mushroomed beyond any reasonable hope of restoration.  I tried to mention the
blades with the socket beaten down to a nubbin by steel hammers. Some have
actually had the useless remnants of the socket amputated.

The only discussion about regrinding into spear points was directed at these
abuse victims. They are beyond any use as socket chisels!

Back the day, quality chisels could be purchased unhandled. Some workers were
satisfied to just beat on the bare socket with a steel hammer. Presumably, that
met their needs.

John Ruth
In hot & humid Metuchen NJ
276224 Darrell <larchmont479@g...> 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Ah yes, the cheap chisels.

I hope no one worries that I've mangled decent tools. The ones I turned
into spear heads were bent, broken, pitted, or otherwise decrepit. Denizens
of the boxes under the dealers tables. The only good part was the socket
being in reasonable shape.

Darrell
Nursing a bad laceration, so no woodworking for me :(  :(

-- wood hoarder, blade sharpener, and occasional tool user
276225 Thomas Conroy 2022‑08‑23 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Hi, John, and GGs,
When I react to the notion of fine chisels being reground into SCA spears, I am
harking back to my own years in the SCA, literally over half a century ago
(1967-1972; I was at the Fourth Tournament, less than a year after the SCA was
founded). At that time, in my late teens and clueless, I thought that regrinding
a socket chisel into a spear head was a great idea; and it was specifically the
socket that was the appeal, since I was unable to think of a way to make a
medieval socket on my own bat. In the end I never did it, mostly because I was
too cheap to pay the cost of a viable chisel, partly because a chisel socket
would have been too small for a spear socket. But the memory is still in there
like a metaphorical bit of shrapnel under the skin, and once in a while it
twinges to remind me not to do something stupid---or makes me say something ill-
natured. Also, I illegitimately conflated entirely separate comments from
different people about Barton chisels and repurposing unspecified-maker socket
chisels.  If I caused offense to anyone, I apologize. The level of craftsmanship
and knowledge in the SCA has moved a long way since my day.

Of course I agree that there are legitimate uses for the poor mangled remains of
what were once superb chisels. Use as hand router blades or other specialty
plane blades is first in my mind right now, since I am reviewing the innumerable
variations on wooden routers for a bookbinding student who wants to make her own
wooden equipment. Also, even if the socket is not viable, a tang might often be
welded into the stump of the socket, or a new socket might be made and welded
on. I'm a bottom-feeder, and I've developed rather a taste for as-found socket
chisels, especially if the remains of the wood handle are still encased in the
mushrooming; it is amazing how often a gross enormous mushroomed end will turn
out to have actually left plenty of viable socket intact, particularly with the
support of the wood stump. The real killer is when the weld in the socket
separates, leaving the viable length of socket half an inch or an inch less than
it seems from the mushrooming alone. I wish I had brazing equipment but I don't.
If there is under an inch of viable socket left I aim to make the chisel a push-
don't-pound tool, by using a very short handle (to reduce sideways stress on the
fragile remnant of the socket) and by leaving off my usual leather washers on
the butt. I've tried to restore a number of chisels that were beyond any
reasonable hope of restoration, and of course I have sometimes failed. But they
are still there to be someone else's router or butt plane blades, and in a
context of usable tools instead of the trash bin. But anyone rational would have
left them alone. Alas, alas! I always have the hope that there will be enough
socket left for light use.
Tom Conroy


John Ruth wrote:  
" I feel sick being told about Barton chisels being reground into SCA spears,
they are rare..."

I wrote, or at least _tried_ to write, about socket chisels which have been
mushroomed beyond any reasonable hope of restoration.  I tried to mention the
blades with the socket beaten down to a nubbin by steel hammers. Some have
actually had the useless remnants of the socket amputated.

The only discussion about regrinding into spear points was directed at these
abuse victims. They are beyond any use as socket chisels!...
276226 Adam R. Maxwell 2022‑08‑25 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
> On Aug 23, 2022, at 08:53 , Thomas Conroy via groups.io
 wrote:
> 
> There is a gradient of hardness from Buck Cast Steel to Swan/Douglass. I
prefer the easily-sharpened end of the spectrum (Buck CS) to the horrible-to-
sharpen end (Swan),

There must be a lot of variability for a given maker. My favorite chisel, hands
down, is a Swan 1-1/4" bevel-edge socket chisel. It's easy to sharpen on
oilstones, and holds an edge nicely for paring or chopping. It also has what I
suspect is an original handle with leather washer on it, and is just
comfortable.

I've heard great things about Herring Bros, and have a NOS Herring that was
ground with low bevel (<20˚, I think). Maybe once it's ground back another 1/8"
or so it'll hold an edge, but it remains a disappointment.

W. Butcher, P. Law, and Wm. Ash are also favorites of mine, in the cast steel
tang chisel category.

> I agree in bewilderment over the choice of the 750 to be copied by Lie-
Nielson, and the consequent fad for them among other makers and users. They
aren't that good; no disgrace on the bench, but not that good. Even more, the
Lie-Nielson copy puzzles me because of its weird balance and excessive weight.
They copied the profile of the 750, but exaggerated the taper in thickness in a
way that increases the weight substantially and throws it all back toward the
hand.nMy instinct is that this would be hard to control and tiring if used all
day, but I have no real evidence about that.

Before discovering the porch in  2009, I started buying L-N
chisels, because the were being touted by handtool guys in magazines. A decade
and more later, I still have and use them, but they've become annoying: the
balance is weird and chunky, as you say, and A2 steel is a fad I regret after
switching to oilstones. The handles also fall out regularly, since they shrank
when I moved to the desecrated side of the state, and the sockets are so perfect
that there's no bite of rusty, lumpy metal to hold the wood in. A bit scary if
you're holding it above your foot.

On the plus side, the L-N chisels really do have flat backs, and I'm not
concerned about damaging them or bashing the snot out of the handles, unlike my
nice vintage paring chisels with the thin, flexible blades.

Adam (spending more time with old r*dios than old chisels lately, in Benton City
WA)
276227 scottg <scottg@s...> 2022‑08‑25 Re: Chisel brands
There is an old Viking saying.......
  Praise not the untested sword.

It basically means, nobody bats 1000.

   Any chisel I find, I consider a "placeholder" chisel until I have 
tried it out some. Only then will I decide if I like it much.
   I have some chisels I adore that are not the top brands.
  I've had some top brand chisels I didn't like, and passed along.
Pretty much all the chisels in my working rack are the pick of several 
identical chisels from various makers.
  I just want a chisel I can like.

    Even after getting the steel recipe down, getting hardness/temper 
just right to make a tool you truly love, is not easy.
    Some companies did it regularly so looking for those is a good bet 
to start.
    But nobody ever did perfect.... always.

It ain't good for me until I say so. hahahahah
     yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
276228 Thomas Conroy 2022‑08‑25 Re: Chisel Pricing confusion
Adam Maxwell wrote: 

"There must be a lot of variability for a given maker. My favorite chisel, hands
down, is a Swan 1-1/4" bevel-edge socket chisel. It's easy to sharpen on
oilstones, and holds an edge nicely for paring or chopping. It also has what I
suspect is an original handle with leather washer on it, and is just
comfortable."


I may well be wrong about the hardness of Swan over the whole history of the
firm. I have three; two of them are so similar in shape, color, and state of
preservation that I think they came from the same set, but one is marked "cast
steel" and the other "alloy steel." My third was NOS without a handle but with a
lopsided grind to the side bevels that probably means that it was originally an
unsold reject made late in the firm's history. All three have the pale, fresh
color steel and the pale varnish on the handles that suggest post-WWII to me. I
should keep my eye open for a Swan with an older "presence."


Adam wrote: "I've heard great things about Herring Bros, and have a NOS Herring
that was ground with low bevel (<20˚, I think). Maybe once it's ground back
another 1/8" or so it'll hold an edge, but it remains a disappointment. W.
Butcher, P. Law, and Wm. Ash are also favorites of mine, in the cast steel tang
chisel category."

When I started buying vintage chisels back in the '80s I knew nothing about the
best or even reliable makers, but I soon noticed that all the real duds I bought
were tang chisels. I also bought some really first rate tang chisels, but I
figured that getting only socket chisels would slant the odds toward good buys.
I hypothesized that socket chisels were always more expensive to make, so a
maker pinching pennies would avoid sockets. At this point I don't know if either
the observation or the hypothesis was correct, but I did buy a lot of very fine
makers long before I recognized their names. There was an unintended side
effect, though, that I bought very few English chisels. Its not that the English
didn't make socket chisels, but I think there was a preference for tangs in
England, and probably a preference for sockets in America. Another unintended
side effect is that I have very few chisels with blades longer than 6"; all are
good bench chisels rather than deliberately long, delicate paring chisels of 8"
or more. Buck, at least, seems to have made the really long delicate ones only
with tangs. My lack of true paring chisels was a great disappointment to me for
decades, but now I think back on all the enormous paring chisel backs, all to be
flattened dead flat for their full length, and I cringe at the work that would
be involved. And I have never really needed true paring chisels for what I have
done, any more than I have needed the pigstickers I took so long to gather and
love so much.

Ahem... Reset...I started in on reminiscence because I don't have any Herring,
Law, or Ash tools, all English makers. I do have a few Butcher tools, but I
think they are all gouges or possibly turning tools, and all worn pst or nearly
past the line of hardened steel. These are mostly not laminated blades, but the
quench was only carred to an inch or two from the tang, leaving the butt end of
the blade quite soft. The same is true, by the way, of most of the American cast
steel chisels I have sharpened; the two regions of hardness are different in
color, and at one time I though this was the sign of a laminated blade (it
isn't, not if the color difference is level on both back and belly of the
blade).


Tom Conroy
Berkeley

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