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275584 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑16 | Wood ID help needed |
Assembled Galootarati, Some help if you please. I've got a table that needs some repair work done that will require some replacement pieces. I'd like to use the same species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match. The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied when finished to match the rest of the piece. The only hints I have is that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in origin. Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A Paul, temporarily in LA |
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275587 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑16 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
There are a bunch of clues..... especially given the provenance and pictures. I believe the piece is NOT veneered. Solid wood. At first glance I thought Chechen.... a wood more used in veneering, but rarely used as a solid wood. It is Italian, maybe, but probably European..... indicates European wood. Slightly to lots different than American lumber. The pix shows a medium, light brown to gray wood. The wood is quarter sawn. The wood is open pore. The object is 80 100 years old. Built in the period of 1920-1940 maybe. There is a knot showing..... really important The object does not show signs of being waxed nor oiled reasonably often, if at all. WYSIWYG I can not tell, but I am going to assume this is not a piece of fine museum quality furniture. This is household furniture for a middle class family? What I can get from this: At first it might appear to be Beech..... but the grain type is wrong. Beech does age to this type of bland grey color.... if it is dirty. I thought of Mahogany, but it just does not look like Mahogany... and there is no red component to the piece.... Italians used a lot of walnut in their furniture. European walnut which is lighter in color than the dark black walnut we are more familiar with. Walnut LIGHTENS with exposure to light, air, and disuse. The environment bleaches out the color. Walnut is an open pore wood. The KNOT looks like it is walnut. Dark swirly patterning. Those swirls hide the original color within them.... I am betting on European Walnut..... French or Italian Walnut Lumber is available time to time. It may be a good match..... See: https://www.gilmerwood.com/ He does not list any today, but a email may elicit a response...... or Hearne Hardwoods has some at least for color and grain comparison.... https://store.hearnehardwoods.com/?filter_species=walnut-european Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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275591 | Kirk Eppler | 2022‑05‑16 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I don't know as much as Frank about wood, though I followed his thought process. I like this site for Wood ID also. My first thought was Italian Chestnut, as I've seen one other piece IDd as that. https://www.hearnehardwoods.com/chestnut-european-lumber/ Not claiming chestnut, but a good website. But I'd scrape the finish a bit, especially on those you are replacing, see what it really looks like. Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA On Mon, May 16, 2022 at 2:11 PM Paul Gardner |
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275592 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
My thought was chestnut. On Monday, May 16, 2022, Kirk Eppler via groups.io |
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275593 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
That would certainly make sense Bill. Thanks very much! Now that you say this, friends gave me some "barn wood" from their property in Grass Valley, CA back in 1999. It is very old and I'm thinking it might be American Chestnut. I'm sure it dates from way before the blight. I'll have to check and report back. Cheers! -Paul |
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275595 | Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I had a buddy who was an engineer and Air Force Captain from NC. This would be 1965..... I was going to the School of Mines in Rapid City. He headed back home when someone passed and brought back the first of many loads of American Chestnut from the sawmill and barn storage this relative had left for him. Some of that stuff would stop the planer. from 6" to 24"+ wide, all about 12-15 feet long. I didn't appreciate at the time how valuable that stash was. Dave was a good woodworker. When he got out of the AF he headed to points west.... wish I'd kept a piece of that wood. 24".....can you imagine that!! God bless |
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275597 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Thanks Charlie, I'll bear this in mind. I'm hoping once I pull the current finish off that I'll have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with. Best, Paul |
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275598 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
given the sharp contrast of the sap/heart that’s not a bad call. but olive doesn’t have a lot of pores… bill |
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275599 | Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Light walnut and chestnut are what first came to mind as well, jumping on the bandwagon here. As for olive, I’ve done some slabbing of olive wood, albeit a California Olive and it was a hard beast of a wood when dried, hardly worth the effort to resaw in the first place. Does olive grow to sizes that would make decent sized boards? None of the trunk logs resawn were more than 6-7 inches at most. Michael On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 10:02 AM Bill Kasper |
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275600 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Can the original poster please tell us more about what the piece is? A table was mentioned... what size? Dinner table type or occasional table? How THICK is the wood of the top? ..... Is this a 4 legged table or a pedestal style? Maybe a pix of the piece, complete, would answer these questions..... When you strip off the finish, take a small area ( top or bottom works as well as the other) and properly sand it and put on some BLO or something similar (Shellac is OK too, but the various colors of Shellac will not help as much.... BLO looks like BLO....it varies little) to give us an idea of what this looked like when it was originally made..... The oxidation of 100 years will then not be present..... What is the "clear" finish currently on the item? It is possible to be shellac, varnish, BLO, or.... Lacquer..... Lacquer was jut becoming in style, and would help dating it.... Use different solvents to establish..... Italian furniture for the middle class in the 20's to 40's was pretty ornate... and mostly made from Walnut. Think lots of rounded surfaces and lots of moulding work in the structure.... Also used during the period was a lot of tables made with a top of marble. ( My grandparents on both sides had this stuff all over the house.... ) BTW The European walnut is/was BROWN toned, not BLACK toned as American Walnut is...... The sanding and refinished sample will tell us much more. Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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275601 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Italian Chestnut, a wood I have no familiarity with, is also a possibility.... Sure has the gray appearance so familiar with Hickory ( not for this piece) and chestnut.... I think knowing the purpose and target market (fancy rich folk? Poor peasants ( more my Grandparents style)? or Middle class? ) for the furniture would also help in this search...... Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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275602 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Paulie's got a lotta 'splainin' to do :) On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 1:29 PM Frank Filippone |
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275603 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2022‑05‑17 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Paul Wood identification is both art and science, and generally darned frustrating. FWIW, I wouldn't apply any chemicals at all until I had a chance to see the wood BEFORE it gets altered in any way by your process. And because sunshine bleaches so much furniture, I would suggest you flip it over, clean it and then apply a card scraper to the underside in one or two locations to see the variance in the wood there, even if it's been finished. That should give you a much better view of what you're working with. In the end, you needn't absolutely repair with the same specie. Something close to grain and texture is most important. It's best to start with patches a bit lighter than the target. Colour you can always adjust with tints and finish. I'm sure Richard Wilson will provide more insight. Good luck! Don On 2022-05-16 3:11 p.m., Paul Gardner wrote: > Assembled Galootarati, > > Some help if you please. I've got a table that needs some repair work done > that will require some replacement pieces. I'd like to use the same > species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match. > The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied > when finished to match the rest of the piece. The only hints I have is > that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in > origin. Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful. Any advice or > suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A > https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A > > Paul, temporarily in LA > > > > > -- God's away on business - Tom Waits "...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder |
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275604 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2022‑05‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Hey - don’t drag me into this! I’ve been pleased to see the traffic go by. I was chatting to Tom Johnson in the workshop just yesterday over a slightly mysterious veneered box with a very tasty veneered lid about what it could be, and how to match in veneer for some chips from the corners. The basis for all of that repair (that’s relevant) would be to find timber in your stash to match. Tom has samples worthy of a BAFRA stash (BAFRA - The British Antique Furniture Restorers) To become a member of BAFRA you are inspected and have to show that you have an adequate stash of old timber to be able to match anything that comes in for grain / texture / colour. The word ‘match’ is interesting. I recommend you all join IWCS and gather some samples, and swap samples, and trade samples and so forth. You soon realise that finding an exact match is probably impossible, and indeed, you’d need to have the original tree and board to get the same growth conditions, so same marking and density. So we restore with something close, but lighter. The essential is to make an invisible join - avoid straight lines. Then the skill - experience - comes in. A likely route would be to use shellac to seal the repair and make it controllable, and removable. Then use gentle stains to refine the colour. I say gentle, because even if you know you have the right colour (color, Paddy) you would apply at half or third strength, aiming to apply several coats to creep up on the colour you need. You may want to use a water based stain so you can wipe it off if necessary, finally ending up with the colour that will be correct after you apply a final seal of palest blondest shellac. Even then, you may not be done. Take a fine artists paint brush and some acrylic paint, and mix up tones of burnt umber, brown, black, yellow to match, and break up your joint line with many, many many fine dots of colour so that the underlying joint line vanishes. No strokes, just a near dry brush. Then you apply the final top surface seal over the entire job. And when you look at the time you spent, you shake your head to get the added knowledge settled down in there and say ’That took too long, and cost too much time and effort’ You also say ‘I could do better next time now I’ve had that experience’ And you go to sleep that night with a warm glow of slightly smug self satisfaction, knowing that you’ve rescued something, saved something - the planet, some valuable never to be found again tree, and most of all, your sanity. I’ll actually try and remember to take photo’s when I start in on that box. Richard Wilson in a sunny Northumberland, where sunshine and summer has returned now that Tom has left (Wonder if it’s connected) > On 17 May 2022, at 21:53, Don Schwartz |
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275608 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2022‑05‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I think butternut, walnut, chestnut would all work well and could be toned as needed to match what you have Cheers from Waterloo Claudio On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 3:15 AM Richard Wilson < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: |
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275609 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Hey all, thanks very much for the tremendous feedback. I'm traveling today but will put some more pictures up tomorrow when I get home which I hope will address some of the group's questions. The underside of the piece that didn't get the 90's bleached out treatment will probably be a lot more helpful to the much appreciated sleuths helping out. I'll be reporting back soon. Many thanks, Paul, on I5 |
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275610 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2022‑05‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
It looks remarkably similar to mahogany grain to me. Mahogany comes in lots of colors, especially the less expensive species of it. (there are dozens to hundreds of kinds of trees going under the mahogany name) Mahogany was THE name for a couple hundred years. .Just like oak in the early 1900's and then again in the 1970's. Every kind of oak (and chestnut too) was sold as oak furniture because it was so popular. The one thing I know for sure, no matter how close you can come to the species/color of the original wood.............. In the end you will find yourself putting the piece in very bright light and taking a pallet with artists colors, mixing as close as you can to the desired color, then wiping the brush across paper or something until it is basically totally dry. Once the brush is dry you continue to use it on the work, and miraculously, very random bits of color will still transfer to the work. If you use too much it shows like neon but if only really minor random bits of color transfers, then it blends. Do this straight on. Get over to the other side and view there, and up over top of it. Every angle. Mix a very slightly different color and dry brush that. Keep going and eventually your repair will disappear. Its really the only way to genuinely match. In fact, its what they mean when they say match. Every museum, and even the corner furniture store uses it. yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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275613 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑19 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Opening up this discussion, there are two different issues with "matching": One is color. the other is grain, both pattern and pore structure. In my thoughts, matching the color will be relatively easy using dyes, glazes, and other topical applications. But matching the grain will be a more difficult task. Getting the right species helps, ditto cutting orientation ( quarter sawn, flat sawn, etc). But just like in making a new piece of furniture, getting a "match" for two pieces of lumber, even from the same tree, and the next plank over in the flitch, is a real challenge...... And why dyes, glazes, and other topical applications as well as Lacquer were invented and used extensively..... or PAINT for that matter! This is made more difficult in a non-thick film finish, like BLO/Danish Oil as opposed to varnish or best, Lacquer...... The film acts like to hide the pore differences.....fill the grain or not allows for some hiding or contrasting!, but is imperfect still. Sometimes you just need to buy into the belief that you can only do what you can do.... it will never be"perfect". If this were an original Townsend Highboy, needing repair and replacement of a section, worth several times several million dollars, there is an unholy amount of labor, expertise, and incentive to get it right..... Ditto a Stradivarius violin. In this case, I do not think that same amount of effort is justifiable...... OTOH, I am not the owner nor the craftsman doing the work.. Remember this oft repeated statement... Do Your Best. Get onto the next job. Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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275618 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑20 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I'm back, and as Bill K. remarked off-list to me - I've got a lot of "splainin to do". per Bill G. >I have an Italian piece I inherited from my grandmother. To me it looks to be a white oak and it looks just like your first >picture. However, it has been bleached w/ oxalic acid. Could your top also have been bleached before staining? Not sure if it was given an oxalic acid bath at some point but the show surfaces were definitely given a gel stain treatment at some point in its life. It actually scrapes off fairly easily, as I'll show with a picture below. Frank offers up a multitude of advice and questions: >Can the original poster please tell us more about what the piece is? A table was mentioned... what size? Dinner table >type or occasional table? How THICK is the wood of the top? ..... Is this a 4 legged table or a pedestal style? Maybe >a pix of the piece, complete, would answer these questions..... >Italian furniture for the middle class in the 20's to 40's was pretty ornate... and mostly made from Walnut. Think lots of >rounded surfaces and lots of moulding work in the structure.... The top (which is the only issue I'll be addressing) is basic frame and panel construction with the panels offset so that they are flush with the surface. 29.5" x 51". At some point the panels broke (most likely due to wood movement) because they were glued on all sides. The glue is hide glue which is fortunate for me. Frank's commentary on the ornateness of Italian middle class furniture seems entirely in line with this piece. Obviously not made by top notch craftsmen but definitely made in a style that aspires to be more than it is. The feet were added by my parents as they were banging their knees on the aprons trying to scooch their chairs in. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-xcg86Nv/A Here is the top showing the extent of the damage. On the left you can see where (my theory) the glue joint of the panel overcame and separated both the grain of the stile as well as the panel. I assume there is a piece that has been fished out but I haven't done careful measurements and I won't know for sure until I get it apart. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-ht9c5hc/A https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-kctcBWp/A https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-VmsfSTT/A here is the underside, I can definitely imagine this being given some sort of treatment in the past but spared the more extreme coloring of the top: https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-GWkQwfm/A Per Claudio's request, here is a shot of the limited engrain options visible on the piece after a quick scraping with a razorblade. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-B4mt53W/A With the benefit of these recent photos, I think we can safely rule out mahogany and possibly rule in some walnut species? Many thanks to Don, Scott, and Richard for their excellent finishing advice and to Frank for all the information as well as his wisdom concerning moving forward with the restoration. All very valuable. Hopefully somewhere in my updates will be the hidden clue as to a positive ID, but I have taken the advice of "good enough" to heart. Many thanks. -Paul, back in SF On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:39 AM Frank Filippone |
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275624 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2022‑05‑21 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Paul gives us thousands of words in just a few pictures. In for repair is a fairly prosaic draw leaf table, with the detachable top showing light signs of wear and damage. What work are we commissioned to do? The top has two panels set into a frame construction, with a split running the length of one panel where stress in the shrinking panel had been relieved probably due to the shrinkage of the panel being constrained by glue. Additionally, shrinkage in each panel has caused one panel to sit skewed in its housing, and the other to exhibit a parallel shrinkage gap The colour (color, Paddy) is really the least of the problem. First off is to make a judgement on 1) Repair / close the split 2) Repair / close the skewed gap. The rest of the piece seems to be sound, so we’ll stop there. Choices A) dismantle the top, correct all issues, reassemble and re-colour. B) fill the splits, refinish. A) Dismantling a sound top is a huge commitment. You say ‘Hide Glue’ which is better than, say, epoxy or a PVA, but is still not to be undertaken lightly. Attempt to remove the wedges, soak the joints, apply destructive levels of pressure, wait, re soak, drill into the joint from below to apply spirit hoping to break the glue line - let’s not go there. Alternatively - can we saw it open, then build it back up? Conceivably yes. Sawing through the M&T joints horizontally would enable you to pull it apart, free the panels, and eventually re-glue after cleaning the joint line. Run a profile through the glue line right round the table top using a scratch stock - just a small something that would look right - a tiny V in cross section. This would leave the appearance of the ends looking sensible. Could work. Or you could saw through the M&T following the existing joint, but rebuilding would leave a witness on the end grain. Then what - free the tops in their grooves, maybe add back a sliver of veneer to close the gaps. For the split, clean out as best as possible, then apply glue and clamp closed. Re finish the top, disguise the veneer, and the split maybe, or leave it as patina. B) the simpler way to go is to consider the ‘value’ of the piece and look for a minimal intervention. Personally, if I could stabilise the split, I would, then allow it to exist, but filled with coloured wax as a bit of the history of the item. The skewed panel is harder. If I can devise a way of rotating it so that there is an even shrinkage gap with parallel edges, then I’d be tempted to do that. Maybe by glueing blocks to the bottom, or screwing blocks to the bottom, then applying pressure to re-align the board. If they are indeed hide glued in place, then you could apply spirit to the joint line, or steam, in hopes of breaking the glue joint as this proceeds. If or when you can re-align them, you can choose to fill with veneer slips, or again, just leave and incorporate into the new finish. Then we get to re-finishing. There appear to be an additional two leaves to it. How do the top of those compare to the bleached top of the centre? You need to re-finish those as well to get a match. And as the legs also appear to match the bleached out appearance, how will you treat the rest of the carcass? - full strip and re- finish, or just the top surfaces. As someone said - test the bottom surface. Prepare a couple of areas, and try staining with something rich and something bland. When you have your decision, clean the top surfaces appropriately and apply. Still - your table, your choice. My caveats being that it’s a tricky job. and I’d be looking at doing the least work consistent with returning it to service, so a final coat of something varnishy then maybe wax for that subtlety of sheen. As a family piece, revel in the backstory and the witness marks. and FWIW - I believe it would be good with new clothes of a rosewood type stain, but that would make it into an entirely different looking item, and som eof its charm is likely to be in the washed out colour as it is. Richard Wilson Yorkshire Galoot recently shamed by all the restoration items not restored awaiting attention, and some abysmal application of wax to our everyday tables. -- Yorkshireman Galoot in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire IT #300 |
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275627 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑22 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I am on the same page as Richard. The table IS lovely, a bit more refined > than most draw leaf tables with the fluted detailing in the legs.... and > the detailing at the top of the legs It looks mass produced, not a one off > piece > > This style of table is found a lot in The UK, and I believe it was very > common in the 1910's through the 60's. Most of those that I have seen were > done in Oak. Is it Italian? Maybe. But maybe we are putting too much > emphasis on European made? It certainly is not the curvy furniture my > grandparents owned. But I digress...... > > The end grain pix shows pretty closed grain structure (oak would have big > pores, really like soda straws in 3d) > > does not look like oak. It has a pretty well done glaze... which does a > good job in hiding what the wood really is....a principle reason to use > glaze. > > I am not so sure about my first guess at Euro Walnut..... It is also NOT > Maple, Birch, ash (these 3 being closed pore species), exotic species like > Rosewood, EBony, etc... not Mahogany or Beech (wrong grain pattern > especially the end grain, additionally no beech fleck in the quarter sawn > face). > > It probably is not Poplar.... but it might be..... I do not see a greenish > color at all > > I am leaning more towards chestnut which is a common European (fruit) tree > species. > > Chestnut looks to me like Pecan > > Not Pecan, maybe Butternut ( white walnut wood) but I thought that both of > these were an American species. > > With the stated provenance, it certainly challenges an obvious answer. > > Back to some earlier thoughts, WHY does this object NEED repair? It does > not seem to be falling apart it is 60-80 years old and has a couple of > issues The customer is always right. But this table has aged with > character and grace. It is beautiful. It still fulfills its purpose. > > I wish it could speak to us to tell us what IT wants us to do! > > > Frank Filippone > BMWRed735i@G... > On 5/21/2022 2:37 AM, Richard Wilson wrote: > > Paul gives us thousands of words in just a few pictures. > > In for repair is a fairly prosaic draw leaf table, with the detachable top showing light signs of wear and damage. What work are we commissioned to do? > The top has two panels set into a frame construction, with a split running the length of one panel where stress in the shrinking panel had been relieved probably due to the shrinkage of the panel being constrained by glue. Additionally, shrinkage in each panel has caused one panel to sit skewed in its housing, and the other to exhibit a parallel shrinkage gap > > > The colour (color, Paddy) is really the least of the problem. > > First off is to make a judgement on > > 1) Repair / close the split > 2) Repair / close the skewed gap. > > The rest of the piece seems to be sound, so we’ll stop there. > > Choices > > A) dismantle the top, correct all issues, reassemble and re-colour. > B) fill the splits, refinish. > > A) Dismantling a sound top is a huge commitment. You say ‘Hide Glue’ which is better than, say, epoxy or a PVA, but is still not to be undertaken lightly. Attempt to remove the wedges, soak the joints, apply destructive levels of pressure, wait, re soak, drill into the joint from below to apply spirit hoping to break the glue line - let’s not go there. > Alternatively - can we saw it open, then build it back up? Conceivably yes. Sawing through the M&T joints horizontally would enable you to pull it apart, free the panels, and eventually re-glue after cleaning the joint line. Run a profile through the glue line right round the table top using a scratch stock - just a small something that would look right - a tiny V in cross section. This would leave the appearance of the ends looking sensible. Could work. Or you could saw through the M&T following the existing joint, but rebuilding would leave a witness on the end grain. > Then what - free the tops in their grooves, maybe add back a sliver of veneer to close the gaps. For the split, clean out as best as possible, then apply glue and clamp closed. Re finish the top, disguise the veneer, and the split maybe, or leave it as patina. > > B) the simpler way to go is to consider the ‘value’ of the piece and look for a minimal intervention. Personally, if I could stabilise the split, I would, then allow it to exist, but filled with coloured wax as a bit of the history of the item. The skewed panel is harder. If I can devise a way of rotating it so that there is an even shrinkage gap with parallel edges, then I’d be tempted to do that. Maybe by glueing blocks to the bottom, or screwing blocks to the bottom, then applying pressure to re-align the board. If they are indeed hide glued in place, then you could apply spirit to the joint line, or steam, in hopes of breaking the glue joint as this proceeds. > If or when you can re-align them, you can choose to fill with veneer slips, or again, just leave and incorporate into the new finish. > > > Then we get to re-finishing. > There appear to be an additional two leaves to it. How do the top of those compare to the bleached top of the centre? You need to re-finish those as well to get a match. And as the legs also appear to match the bleached out appearance, how will you treat the rest of the carcass? - full strip and re- finish, or just the top surfaces. > As someone said - test the bottom surface. Prepare a couple of areas, and try staining with something rich and something bland. When you have your decision, clean the top surfaces appropriately and apply. > > Still - your table, your choice. > > My caveats being that it’s a tricky job. and I’d be looking at doing the least work consistent with returning it to service, so a final coat of something varnishy then maybe wax for that subtlety of sheen. As a family piece, revel in the backstory and the witness marks. > > and FWIW - I believe it would be good with new clothes of a rosewood type stain, but that would make it into an entirely different looking item, and som eof its charm is likely to be in the washed out colour as it is. > > Richard Wilson > Yorkshire Galoot > recently shamed by all the restoration items not restored awaiting attention, and some abysmal application of wax to our everyday tables. > > > > > > > -- > Frank Filippone > BMWRed735i@g... > -- Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g... |
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275628 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2022‑05‑22 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Just to add to Frank's notes on material I wondered about rubberwood - ye yes, ha haha. But we see a good bit of it on low end items here, and it has that grain characteristic, at least on the side. One thing we didn’t ask - weight? Heavy is usually good. and the thickness of the top? it seems to be solid wood panels, so how thick? There were lots of tables of this general style produced when timber was short. I have some bits of a 2 pedestal version in the ’shop which I broke down. It was reasonably substantial looking when whole, but the ’solid’ bulbous elizabethan type legs were in fact built up, and it was cunningly made from the minimum amount of timber. My parents, and now my brother had/have an oak table with plywood panels, the top veneer, plus a balance underneath, are oak to match the frame. Top panel is, as Paul originally said, set into its groove by making an assymetrical tongue. Simple is efficient- can’t go wrong in the workshop. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot. 07:00 and the sun has just hidden itself, after shining warmly from out at sea. > On 22 May 2022, at 02:02, Frank Filippone |
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275631 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑23 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
One half of the List's famous brace of Yorkshireman provides a wealth of sound advice which I will need to consider very carefully moving forward. He also brings up additional questions that should be answered before retiring this subject to the archives. The question of weight is an insightful one and I'm kicking myself for not including it with previous remarks. The bathroom scale, banished to the garage for repeated acts of impertinence, judges the weight of this 29.5" x 51" table to be 23 lbs. (approx. 10.5 kg, Jeff) and my trusty outside calibers hailing from Athol, Massachusetts put panel thickness at 1/2". Lifting this top feels "lighter than expected" to this galoot, but that's never been an accepted standard despite my petitions to International Bureau of Weights and Measures. The "customer" and the primary mover and shaker in fixing these gaps is my mother - a house proud west country girl who has grown weary of the ritual wrangling of crumbs that escape the spackling of butter, marmalade or Marmite on the morning toast. Doubtless you have also concluded that she is completely dug-in with the camp of individual place settings on the great debate v. table cloths and is impervious to such practical, low cost prophylactics. Not only does this necessitate a more extreme remedy, but it also renders our crumb scraper - a travel trophy my father charmed off a French waiter - superfluous and deprives him of a "ready made" story telling opportunity at the table. When dad (a less famous Yorkshireman than the two aforementioned) saw the temporary substitute I made - a sheet of quality birch plywood with a 1/4" round over and 6 coats of Varathane finish - he correctly forecast my mothers delight in the color match and its gap-free nature as well as her response that I could "take as long as I like with the repairs". Such proclamations bandied about in the company of galoots are risky. I'm not sure she was fully aware of this peril and I didn't enlighten her. Thanks again for all the helpful and valuable responses. I'll let you know how it goes. Paul, in SF On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 11:10 PM Richard Wilson < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: |
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275633 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2022‑05‑24 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
May I suggest, given the the owner is a prominent superior of one of our own, and wants the table fixed, maybe the easiest and safest solution is to make a completely new top.. copy the existing top, using whatever wood you want.....or can get. Finish to fit the application or as the original was done.. I wonder why all of us never thought of this approach......? Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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275635 | Kirk Eppler | 2022‑05‑24 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
This may help ensure that he stays on Galoot Standard Time. Though I suspect that the repair might actually take longer than starting from scratch. Kirk in Half Moon Bay, swimming in chaos of other's creation. On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 8:37 PM Frank Filippone |
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275636 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑05‑24 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Knowing Paul, he'll inlay the fix with semi-precious wood, and crushed semi-precious stones under clear epoxy. Time to call Ea, Paul? Bill Felton, CA On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 9:45 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io |
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275637 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑05‑24 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
LOL. This is Kasper's delicate way of saying my kintsugi should have turned left at Albuquerque. Actually, Richard came up with the corker of just drawing in the lines on the current plywood with the appropriately sized pen tip and calling it a day. There's a man who thinks outside the box! -Paul, in SF |
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275638 | gtgrouch@r... | 2022‑05‑24 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
I made the mistake of drinking coffee whilst reading the felt tip idea Suffice it to say that I have found a new way to use coffee in addition to the time honored method of treating it as if it were a beverage Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA _postscriptum_: To use my kid's vernacular, "0/10 - do NOT recommend." -----------------------------------------From: "Paul Gardner" To: "Dragon List" Cc: "Kirk Eppler", "Frank Filippone", "Tools Old" Sent: Tuesday May 24 2022 1:35:04PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Wood ID help needed LOL. This is Kasper's delicate way of saying my kintsugi should have turned left at Albuquerque. Actually, Richard came up with the corker of just drawing in the lines on the current plywood with the appropriately sized pen tip and calling it a day. There's a man who thinks outside the box! -Paul, in SF On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 10:16 AM Dragon List wrote: > Knowing Paul, he'll inlay the fix with semi-precious wood, and crushed > semi-precious stones under clear epoxy. Time to call Ea, Paul? > > Bill > Felton, CA > > On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 9:45 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io gene.com@g...> wrote: > >> This may help ensure that he stays on Galoot Standard Time. Though I >> suspect that the repair might actually take longer than starting from >> scratch. >> >> Kirk in Half Moon Bay, swimming in chaos of other's creation. >> >> On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 8:37 PM Frank Filippone >> wrote: >> >> > May I suggest, given the the owner is a prominent superior of one of our >> > own, and wants the table fixed, maybe the easiest and safest solution >> is to >> > make a completely new top.. >> > >> > copy the existing top, using whatever wood you want.....or can get. >> > Finish to fit the application or as the original was done.. >> > >> > I wonder why all of us never thought of this approach......? >> > >> > Frank Filippone >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA >> >> >> >> >> >> Links: ------ [1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub |
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276462 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑10‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Dear assembled, I just thought I'd post a follow up to the wood ID inquiry I put to the List last May and provide some progress and "after" pictures of my parents antique kitchen table restoration. After I got the piece disassembled, the wood ID problem became (thankfully) moot. Just to remind you of the problem, here are some "before" pictures of the challenges. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-VmsfSTT/A https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-kctcBWp/A https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-ht9c5hc/A Initial tests on exposed glue joints determined that hide glue was used to put the table together. This confirmation came as a huge relief to me and I was able to get the thing apart with hot water, a heat gun, hammer and wedges over the course of a day. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-WFx7b8X https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-rwnZFqS https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-4j9WfdH My theory for the failures were substantiated in that all four sides of the panels were glued to their neighboring frames and repeated expansion and contractions caused the wood to split along the weak points in the panel while the glue joints remained tight and in place. These fissures continued to expand over the years. Some of the broken half-lap tongues could be reunited with their counterparts liberated from the frames but others simply could not. Those that could not be saved had new tongues made by simply inlaying a strip of oak into the bottom of the panel with the requisite size stick out tenant for the frame. There were a few places on the show faces of the panel that needed repair but as I dry fit the pieces together with the tongue repairs made, the original geometry had largely been restored and the 1/4" gaps I was thinking I had fill now turned out to much more manageable and forgiving 1/16" gaps. This meant I could make some veneers and on edge the two different species would not be noticeable - especially after the finish was applied. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-MChD65Q https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-qrdKbMh https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-wTkZvJG I ended up stripping the entire top, saving the best piece of the original aside for color matching purposes. I was able to get the closest color match using approximately 6 parts General Finishes "New Pine" gel stain to 1 part General Finishes white gel stain. Over that I did about 5 coats of GF High performance satin water based topcoat. Then I stripped the remaining piece and color matched it with the rest of the pieces. Glue up was done with hide glue (per original) and I even noted that information for any future restorer on the underside of the table, along with the date of this restoration. Here are the after shots which got a thumbs up from both parents. Delivery is set for Thanksgiving. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-sBrrH5k https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-zX2Q5mq Paul, in SF |
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276463 | Greg Isola <gregorywisola@g...> | 2022‑10‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Wait, so we still don't know what kind of wood it is?! Seriously, congratulations, Paul, on a very galootish job, very well done !Plus, you'll get to see (and bask in the glory of) your work on a regular basis, as it stays in the family. Thanks for sharing! Greg Isola Alameda, CA |
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276464 | Kirk Eppler | 2022‑10‑18 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Looking good as new (or at least my imagination of what new looked like). Well done, as always. Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 3:26 PM Greg Isola |
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276467 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2022‑10‑19 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
It's unidentifanium! (Did I spell that right?) Sadly unobtainium... Don On 2022-10-18 4:25 p.m., Greg Isola wrote: > Wait, so we still don't know what kind of wood it is?! > > Seriously, congratulations, Paul, on a very galootish job, very well done > !Plus, you'll get to see (and bask in the glory of) your work on a regular > basis, as it stays in the family. > > Thanks for sharing! > > Greg Isola > Alameda, CA > > >> > > > > -- Chuck the king - DS It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder |
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276468 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2022‑10‑19 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Paul shows us his restored table top… A cracking good piece of work, leaving it looking untouched. Excellent! I can’t help but point out that if you’re in the habit of assembling those grossly heavy tenders on the dining room table you will need a better underframe! - some of us have interests in objects such as that - inserted as a teaser no doubt amongst pics of table tops. -Any chance of views of the finished table, with those appealing legs? Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot > On 18 Oct 2022, at 23:05, Paul Gardner |
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276469 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2022‑10‑19 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
Many thanks to all for the kind words. They are very much appreciated. Richard, I'll send you a photo (complete with legs) when I take it to Los Angeles next month. >I can’t help but point out that if you’re in the habit of assembling those grossly heavy tenders on the dining room table you will need a better underframe! I would agree with you there Richard, but this is technically the kitchen table so it mostly gets used for lighter assembly projects like home built, variable speed rotary tables for TIG welding and the like. The actual dining room table is more suited to heavy assembly projects - being made from a single piece of Cuban mahogany. ;^> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-7FVZ4xc https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-KXb7ZBV Best regards. Paul, in the midst of an Indian Summer in SF. On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:04 AM yorkshireman@y... < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: |
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276471 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2022‑10‑19 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
A really tricky piece of work pulled off with style Paul! Restoring a family heirloom comes under special work. Way to go! yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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276472 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2022‑10‑20 | Re: Wood ID help needed |
A very nice restoration job, Paul. May it stay in your family for many years to come. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
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