I'm currently designing a timber-framed shed for the side of
the house using Cecil A. Hewett's "English Historic Carpentry"
(ISBN 0-941936-41-4) as a reference.

Off-hand I'd say I'll be needing at least a couple hundred
treenails.  Is there some trick to producing these in a timely
fashion, or does one have to hack them out one at a time using
a hatchet ?  Hewing each one by hand could easily amount to
the most time-consuming operation of the whole construction.

The joint connecting post, top plate and tie beam typically
relies on a jowled post, where the upper extremity of the post
is about twice as deep as the rest (that's the jowl), providing
sufficient wood for a pair of tenons, one into the top plate
and one into the tie beam.  From the pictures it looks like
these were originally hewn from a single piece of timber (I'd
be interested in learning how).

I intend to do most of the construction using 4x4 western red
cedar so am wondering if building up the top part of the post
using a short piece of 4x4 would be sensible.  I'd probably
resort to a bunch of screws for this part, even though that
would sort of violate the wood-only intent of the whole
constuction.

BTW, the above-mentioned book provides a good look at some
pretty fantastic woodwork, being mostly about cathedrals
and such (mainly sketches of the constructions of frames and
their joints, very few photos or descriptions of how these
frames were covered).  What I find really amazing is that the
pinnacle of what man has been able to achieve using wood only
occured many hundreds of years ago.

(I was also heartened to read that some of the roofs took
10-15 years to complete).

Paul Pedersen
Montreal (Quebec)
http://www.cam.org/~perrons/Paul/Woodwork/woodwork.html

Paul Pedersen wrote:
>
> I'm currently designing a timber-framed shed for the side of
> the house using Cecil A. Hewett's "English Historic Carpentry"
> (ISBN 0-941936-41-4) as a reference.
>


questions about treenails  - sorry I cant answer that one
but wanted to mention the Benson has a good book out about Timberframing
too, forget the title, that may be of some help in you quest for an
answer

Aaron I.   taak   %^)
=================================================================
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Application Support Engineer         ajionta@m...  (Home)
Intranet Solutions Inc.          (612)903-2032 (W)
                                 (888)688-8324 x2032 (W tollfree)

=================================================================

Paul Pedersen wrote:

> 
> Off-hand I'd say I'll be needing at least a couple hundred
> treenails.  Is there some trick to producing these in a timely
> fashion, or does one have to hack them out one at a time using
> a hatchet ?  Hewing each one by hand could easily amount to
> the most time-consuming operation of the whole construction.
>

The way I've seen it done it to first roughly shape the wood into a
cylinder. Then take a steel plate with the approprately size hole
drilled into it. The plate needs to be firmly mounted horizontally
becuase you are going to start whacking the wood through the hole with a
mallet to achieve the cylindical shape. The neatest mount for this I've
seen was a section of log about two feet tall with the plate mounted in
the middle and a hole drilled down into the log  and then out through
the side forming a chute.  Since your timbers are only 4x4's then the
treenails won't be that big so  I would just screw the plate onto a
block of wood and clamp that in a machinists vise and start whacking. I
think they would normall be tapered using a draw kniw but these will be
small enough that I would just wittle then down with a pocket knife

Dan (again giving answers without any actual experience doing it)

Gentle galoots,

Depending on how big the "pegs" were to be, I would have these
suggestions:

1) Find a pipe that is somewhat bigger inside than the intended peg.
Sharpen the end of the pipe and slightly push the wall of the pipe in at
the sharpened edge.  Get some straight splitting logs cut into the
appropriate length.  Mark lines on the end with a froe, to form a series
of squares.  Tie some string around the log to keep it together during
the splitting.  Split away!  Drive the square blanks through the pipe.
As one is almost down to the cutting lip, then place another one on that
and pound.  Never hit the cutter.  This would work for short pegs, as
longer ones will get stuck in the pipe.

2)Harvest saplings close to size and use a Stail engine.  It has two
handles and a cutter.

3)Same as #2, but use a Fork stave plane.

>Paul wrote:
>Off-hand I'd say I'll be needing at least a couple hundred
>treenails.  Is there some trick to producing these in a timely
>fashion, or does one have to hack them out one at a time using
>a hatchet ?  Hewing each one by hand could easily amount to
>the most time-consuming operation of the whole construction.

Guess I'm not the only one not getting much done this morning ... :-)

I was under the impression that treenails were square in section,
and tapered lengthwise.  Hewett doesn't say anything about them
but there's a picture of one on page 145 of Wolfram Graubner's
"Encyclopedia of Wood Joints" (ISBN 1-56158-004-X) which is as
just described plus a four-sided pyramid to point the tip.

As in furniture, I thought the square sides, driven into a round
hole, gave the peg more bite and that the taper was to help
insertion into a draw-bored tenon.

I don't suppose there's a source for ready-made treenails ?
I should have started splitting last winter.  Actually, next
time I lose power for eleven days during an ice storm, I'll
now have something to do while watching the fire :-)

Paul Pedersen
Montreal (Quebec)
http://www.cam.org/~perrons/Paul/Woodwork/woodwork.html

Paul,
I've been involved in designing and erecting several large timber frames, and
dismantling a few more, and I'll pass along a few things in response to your
questions.
Jowled posts, or gunstock posts, and they are sometimes called,  were ripped
from full-width timbers.  I'm not sure you could replicate the strength with
any other arrangement. I did a mess of these from 8 x 14 oak timbers, 14 feet
long. All but the top 3 feet had to be ripped off as waste. After doing a few,
it became obvious that there had to be a faster way.
What we finally decided on was to crosscut every few inches along the waste,
then knock off the resulting blocks with a big mallet, and or a framing
chisel. The raw edge was then finished with drawknife, slick,  and planes. In
green stuff,  this is easier than it sounds.
I would NOT use metallic fastners in any timber frame construction for the
reason that humid air will deposit dew on the metal, and draw it into the wood
structure right at all the critical joints, thereby causing it to deteriorate
long before its time.  The same applies to bolted-on joint braces, nails,
throughbolting, and screws. This admixture of two disparate building
disciplines is, in my opinion, the cause of the early demise of a lot of this
country's covered bridges. I believe the speed of decay is related to the wood
species,  but it will surely take place in time. An all wood joint will last
centuries.

Trenails, or pins,  are most easily made from very dry stock, ripped in long
lengths,  and planed from the square to a slightly oversized octagon shape. A
simple jig helps with the planing. Make it up in the same fashion as the jig
used for planing the segments for bamboo fishing rod blanks. Arrange it so the
corner to be planed just sticks up proud of the jig walls, and you'll know
you've planed deeply enough when your plane begins to strike the sides of the
jig. Use a block plane or a small smoother set fairly coarse. They can be
rough cut before driving, and then trimmed, or they can be finished on the
endgrain with more detail, then driven. The idea is to get the corners to bite
into the wood of the timbers, and then have them swell as they wick moisture
from the less-dry timbers. The bore circle of the drill bit you use should
just fit into the octagon that describes the pins you're making. This insures
the corners will bite when driven. Most of the ones I've extracted from
buildings I've torn down were handmade like this from black locust (robinia
pseudoacacia) or honeylocust. (gleditsia triacanthos)  The stock for these
cannot be too dry.

For larger structures, it is helpful to bore holes so that they are slightly
offcenter from each other. The driving in of the pin or trenail then pulls the
joint tight. I've seen this referred to as "drawboring",  but the term itself
is confusing.  The practice itself is useful however, as I've seen the
endgrain of the girt or horizontal member actually forced into the side grain
of the post by this technique.

I'll leave you in the hands of our other timberframers,  who I'm certain are
lurking somewhere near.  Good luck, and DO supply pictures when you're done!
Regards,
Nick

Snip of very complete description of tree nails from Nick:

> Trenails, or pins,  are most easily made from very dry stock,
> ripped in long lengths,  and planed from the square to a
> slightly oversized octagon shape.

> The idea is to get the corners to bite into the wood of the
> timbers, and then have them swell as they wick moisture from
> the less-dry timbers.

> The stock for these cannot be too dry.

Reading this makes me wonder if the combination of very dry
pegs and wetter surrounding timber will be susceptible to the
same effects as the mortise and tenon joints in Windsor chairs.

In his early stages, Mike Dunbar used to recommend that the
tenon material be very dry so that it would swell to lock the
joint together.  But later, he said that was a mistake, because
he realized that, as it swelled, the super-dry tenon would
compress the wood fibers around the mortise which would lead
to a looser joint during subsequent wet/dry cycles where the
tenon and mortise might shrink away from each other.  I
believe this is his current thinking anyway.

- Bill

> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:35:58 -0400
> From: Paul Pedersen 
> Subject: Treenails and jowls
>
> I'm currently designing a timber-framed shed for the side of
> the house using Cecil A. Hewett's "English Historic Carpentry"
> (ISBN 0-941936-41-4) as a reference.
>
> Off-hand I'd say I'll be needing at least a couple hundred
> treenails.  Is there some trick to producing these in a timely
> fashion, or does one have to hack them out one at a time using
> a hatchet ?  Hewing each one by hand could easily amount to
> the most time-consuming operation of the whole construction.
I seem to recall Roy Underhill using a dowel plate for producing
pins on one of his shows.  He split pieces of approximate size
with a froe, and then drove them through a drilled hole in a
steel plate.  I think there were several sizes of holes so that
he could stage larger pieces to the proper size.
Hope this helps.

Steve Shapland

Steve Shapland, replying to Pauls query, says...

        >I seem to recall Roy Underhill using a dowel plate for
producing
        >pins on one of his shows.  He split pieces of approximate size
..snippo..

Which made me recall that whilst enthroned yesterday evening, leafing
through one of Harold Underhill's books (doyen of model ships) I read
his description of making wooden trenails down to drill size No73.
He advocates bamboo, and use of a dowel plate, which he used to
make from iron hoops ex barrels.  When they lost the crisp corner
needed to cut well, you just drill a new one.

(I don't think trenails get much smaller than No73.....)

Richard Wilson
(fascinating books - my hero.... )

on assignment in Swindon, UK
Mail to
ARWilson@c...
always reaches me eventuallly
cell phone +44  (0) 468 266052

Bill Clouser wrote:
>
> Snip of very complete description of tree nails from Nick:
>
> > Trenails, or pins,  are most easily made from very dry stock,
> > ripped in long lengths,  and planed from the square to a
> > slightly oversized octagon shape.
>
> > The idea is to get the corners to bite into the wood of the
> > timbers, and then have them swell as they wick moisture from
> > the less-dry timbers.
>
> > The stock for these cannot be too dry.
>
> Reading this makes me wonder if the combination of very dry
> pegs and wetter surrounding timber will be susceptible to the
> same effects as the mortise and tenon joints in Windsor chairs.
>
> In his early stages, Mike Dunbar used to recommend that the
> tenon material be very dry so that it would swell to lock the
> joint together.  But later, he said that was a mistake, because
> he realized that, as it swelled, the super-dry tenon would
> compress the wood fibers around the mortise which would lead
> to a looser joint during subsequent wet/dry cycles where the
> tenon and mortise might shrink away from each other.  I
> believe this is his current thinking anyway.
>
> - Bill

I don't know doodly squat about timber framing, but our
woodworking club took a look at the church where we hold ou
meetings. It's a brick covered, timber frame building from the
early 1800's. I seem to recall someone saying that the pegs (tree
nails?) were supposed to be left protruding and hammered back it
as the structure loosened up. The attic was made from massive oak
timbers held together with wicked looking wooden  12" spikes.

Bill Millios (wmillios@a...), who hasn't had time for the list
lately, partly because he's planning on building a timber frame
house and shop, would know more about this.

Carl

Warning: this contains a long, boring explanation of theories, with
only minimal real-world experience to back it up.  Skip it if you're
not into that sort of thing.

"Bill Clouser"  wrote:

> > The stock for these cannot be too dry.
>
> Reading this makes me wonder if the combination of very dry
> pegs and wetter surrounding timber will be susceptible to the
> same effects as the mortise and tenon joints in Windsor chairs.

For those interested, there was a great article a number of years ago
in FWW describing why dowel joints (round mortise and tenon, like
chair rung joints) are doomed to failure just about no matter what you
do.  I'll find the pointer if someone wants it.  I'm not sure if these
descriptions apply to pegged lap or mortice and tenon joints or not,
though.

> In his early stages, Mike Dunbar used to recommend that the
> tenon material be very dry so that it would swell to lock the
> joint together.  But later, he said that was a mistake, because
> he realized that, as it swelled, the super-dry tenon would
> compress the wood fibers around the mortise which would lead
> to a looser joint during subsequent wet/dry cycles where the
> tenon and mortise might shrink away from each other.  I
> believe this is his current thinking anyway.

Your description of what happens in the joint over time is true, but
according to the FWW article, it doesn't matter if the parts are wet
or dry to start out with.  Original moisture content at best postpones
the inevitable.

With the grain of the leg, the mortise will not grow and shrink much
with the weather.  This is against the grain of the rung, so the tenon
will try to grow and shrink in this direction.  Since it is
constrained by the unchanging mortise, it will be compressed in that
direction, and will shrink smaller during the next dry spell.  You can
line up the grain in the plane perpendicular to the rung and leg by
choosing where you drill the tenon, and the rotation of the tenon in
the hole.  In this case, the tenon won't be compressed sideways by the
mortice because both parts will swell and shrink the same amount as
the weather changes.  But, parallel to the tenon, the mortice will
shrink and grow (in depth), but the tenon won't, so the glue bonds on
the sides of the mortice will break eventually anyway.

As for real-world experience... does anyone have a wooden post and
rung chair more than a few years old that doesn't have loose tenons?

In the FWW article they were testing flexible gap filling glues
(silicone based, I believe) to solve this problem: make the tenon
undersized, and use a compressible gap filing glue.  They found that
it worked, but probably wasn't generally feasible.  The chairs were
springier feeling, and the joints were weaker when the chairs were
first constructed, but after a few wet/dry cycles, the flexibly glued
tenons hadn't changed much in strength, but the normal ones were much
weaker.

I don't really want to speak for Mike Dunbar, but as I understand it,
the main reason he stopped doing wet/dry locking tenon construction of
his chairs was because he realized it was unnecessary.  The stretchers
in a Windsor chair are compression members, not tension members (in
his book he makes the stretchers 1/4" longer than they should be, to
make sure they're pushing the legs out).  Since they work to push the
legs apart, it doesn't help much to construct them to resist a
pulling-out force.  If the mortices and tenons are well constructed,
the bottom half of a Windsor will stay together with no glue at all,
and sitting on the chair only strengthens the joints.

As you can tell, I definitely need to spend more time in the shop, and
less time reading...

Alan

At 3:11 PM -0400 7/23/98, Bill Millios wrote (Hi, Bill!) on Carl
Muhlhausen's dime:
>our woodworking club took a look at [a] timber frame building from the
>early 1800's. I seem to recall someone saying that the pegs (tree
>nails?) were supposed to be left protruding and hammered back it
>as the structure loosened up. The attic was made from massive oak
>timbers held together with wicked looking wooden  12" spikes.

        Now you guys went and made me get all cobwebby.  My house was built
c. 1853 of what around here is called "post-and-beam" construction, like
most old barns and much like modern timber framing.  Inside the crawl space
above the leanto roof off the main 1 1/2 story section the beams are still
exposed, and after following this thread I just had to look at the pins I
remembered were visible there.
        One central post is a full 11" x 8", red oak I believe, with cross
beams mortised in at the level of the upper floor.  The end of the pins
that were pounded in still protrude about 4" into the crawl space.  I'd
have to cut a sample to verify, but I think they are of white oak, and were
made square and then chamfered down to an irregular octagon shape, still
somewhat larger than the 1" round holes probably made by a boring machine.
Closer inspection shows that the pegs (trenails) are compressed by a
visible amount where they enter the holes.
        I grabbed and tried to wiggle each of the four pins I could see,
and they are as tight as if part of the beam itself, after about 145 years.
                Tom Holloway

alan ferrency[SMTP:alan@l...] said:

(a bunch of stuff about round mortise and tenon joints being inherently
unstable snipped)

>The stretchers
>in a Windsor chair are compression members, not tension members (in
>his book he makes the stretchers 1/4" longer than they should be, to
>make sure they're pushing the legs out).  Since they work to push the
>legs apart, it doesn't help much to construct them to resist a
>pulling-out force.

Okay, here's where I'm really confused.  I've heard this theory before
(probably from Mike Dunbar's newsletter), but I don't yet understand it.
Could someone explain to me how the stretchers of a Windsor chair
are under compression?   I don't deny that it's true, I just don't understand.
My more-or-less intuitive analysis indicates just the opposite.  Perhaps
I should have paid more attention to vectors in high school Physics class.

-Hal

In a message dated 98-07-23 13:20:45 EDT, you write:

<< Reading this makes me wonder if the combination of very dry
< pegs and wetter surrounding timber will be susceptible to the
< same effects as the mortise and tenon joints in Windsor chairs.

< In his early stages, Mike Dunbar used to recommend that the
>

Bill,
I would agree with Dunbar when talking about furniture, but I don't think that
wood pins swelling can hurt the timbers in a  structure...just too much wood.
The idea is really to get the pegs or pins to bite in, and green pegs are too
soft and deform too easily to get it done. I've seen folks use round dowel-
like pegs, and they just fall out after a year or so.  Mine don't fall out,
but they DO require a bit of force to drive home. (hmmm, I once dated a young
lady who had the same characteristics...)
After a season or so of equalizing,I doubt if green versus dry is meaningful
anymore.  It's the original interference fit that you're after.  Timber
framers? What say you all?
Nick

~  -----Original Message-----
~  From: owner-oldtools@l...
~  [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of alan
~  ferrency
~  Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:26 PM
~  To: oldtools@l...
~  Cc: Bill Clouser
~  Subject: RE: Treenails and jowls

~  As for real-world experience... does anyone have a wooden post and
~  rung chair more than a few years old that doesn't have loose tenons?

Yes. See my home page for an ash chair made about 35 years ago. I've just
checked it and found no loose tenons. It was just glued together when I
didn't know about these fancy theories about the orientation of annual
rings. Mind you, the diameters are fairly small so the chair is fairly
springy, disconcerting for some of the heftier of our friends.

I've been meaning to learn from experience and make a better one for the
last 34.95 years.

Jeff

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Jeff Gorman wrote:

> ~  As for real-world experience... does anyone have a wooden post and
> ~  rung chair more than a few years old that doesn't have loose tenons?
>
> Yes. See my home page for an ash chair made about 35 years ago.
> http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.html

I _knew_ someone was going to provide a counterexample.
Unfortunately, I'm not prepared with a snappy response. :)

On a side note, that's a really interesting seat.  It's made from
plywood?  How thick is it?

Alan

Reply to message from laurent@c... of Fri, 24 Jul
>
>alan ferrency[SMTP:alan@l...] said:
>
>
>>The stretchers
>>in a Windsor chair are compression members, not tension members (in
>>his book he makes the stretchers 1/4" longer than they should be, to
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>make sure they're pushing the legs out).  Since they work to push the
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>legs apart, it doesn't help much to construct them to resist a
>>pulling-out force.
>
>Okay, here's where I'm really confused.  I've heard this theory before
>(probably from Mike Dunbar's newsletter), but I don't yet understand it.
>Could someone explain to me how the stretchers of a Windsor chair
>are under compression?   I don't deny that it's true, I just don't understand.
>My more-or-less intuitive analysis indicates just the opposite.  Perhaps
>I should have paid more attention to vectors in high school Physics class.
>

I'll take a stab at this.  Since the stretches are longer than the
actual distance between the non-stretched legs they bow the legs outward
when installed.  The springyness of the legs then pushes back on the
stretcher holding it tight.  If the legs splay too much, or the person
sitting on the chair is two heavy then I think that the stretcher might
come loose.  Over time, I tend to think that the wood would creep and
the compression on the stretcher would gradually lessen.  Maybe 'over
time' is several hundred years, though.

Also, since the legs are splayed when the seat is pused down on the legs
the splayed legs will be ever so slightly drawn closer together, also
putting compressoin on the stretcher, though I expect that is a trivial
effect.

"Bill Clouser"  wrote:

> > In his early stages, Mike Dunbar used to recommend that the
> > tenon material be very dry so that it would swell to lock the
> > joint together.  But later, he said that was a mistake, because
> > he realized that, as it swelled, the super-dry tenon would
> > compress the wood fibers around the mortise which would lead
> > to a looser joint during subsequent wet/dry cycles where the
> > tenon and mortise might shrink away from each other.  I
> > believe this is his current thinking anyway.
>
>
> As for real-world experience... does anyone have a wooden post and
> rung chair more than a few years old that doesn't have loose tenons?
>
Only the Dunbar chairs...

Then Alan who has been doing his homework sez:
>
> I don't really want to speak for Mike Dunbar, but as I understand it,
> the main reason he stopped doing wet/dry locking tenon construction of
> his chairs was because he realized it was unnecessary.  The stretchers
> in a Windsor chair are compression members, not tension members (in
> his book he makes the stretchers 1/4" longer than they should be, to
> make sure they're pushing the legs out).  Since they work to push the
> legs apart, it doesn't help much to construct them to resist a
> pulling-out force.  If the mortices and tenons are well constructed,
> the bottom half of a Windsor will stay together with no glue at all,
> and sitting on the chair only strengthens the joints.
>
>
Bingo!!!

Tension vs compression is the key here.  Glue is an attempt to keep
the tension, the Dunbar system is under compression, the your weight
on the chair produces an opposing force.  Or course no one seems to
have figured out how to automate this yet, which is why you need a
"bench made"  (real person with brain in gear) chair to get the effect.

I am not "speaking for Mike" but it's in his classes and his newsletters.

Esther eoh@k...

>
> alan ferrency[SMTP:alan@l...] said:
>
> (a bunch of stuff about round mortise and tenon joints being inherently
> unstable snipped)
>
> >The stretchers
> >in a Windsor chair are compression members, not tension members (in
> >his book he makes the stretchers 1/4" longer than they should be, to
> >make sure they're pushing the legs out).  Since they work to push the
> >legs apart, it doesn't help much to construct them to resist a
> >pulling-out force.
>
> Okay, here's where I'm really confused.  I've heard this theory before
> (probably from Mike Dunbar's newsletter), but I don't yet understand it.
> Could someone explain to me how the stretchers of a Windsor chair
> are under compression?   I don't deny that it's true, I just don't understand
.
> My more-or-less intuitive analysis indicates just the opposite.  Perhaps
> I should have paid more attention to vectors in high school Physics class.
>

Ok here is a pitiful attemp at ascii art

                   ___________________
                  |     /   /
                  |    /   / thick chair seat
                  |   /   /
                  ---/   /------------
                    /   /
                   tapered leg

The picture is incorrect in that the leg is conical and going through
an equally conical hole.  When you assemble the legs and put them
into the seat, the lengthwise and crosswise stretchers are oversized
by a quarter inch (you ream the conical holes in the seat and fit the
legs, then pick off the exact dimensions and add 1/4 inch).  The holes
in the seat all point away from the center, so you get all the (glue
smeared) legs started and pound them home. The thickness of the seat
forces the stretchers to compress, the further in you pound the legs
the more you are pushing the tops of the legs apart, which pulls
the bottoms of the legs together.  The force of your weight on the
chair is equivalent to pounding the legs in further.  The compression
is the bottoms of the legs pulling together compressing the stretchers
(which are more than half way down the length of the leg so pulling
in).

In my old "windsor style" dining room chairs the seats are thin and
the legs don't go all the way through.  The weight of a person sitting
on the chair pushes all the legs out and the stretchers are the only
thing holding it together (until the glue breaks _again_).  The trick
in the original style that Mike got early although he hadn't figured
out the physics yet when he wrote the book, is the 1/4 oversize on the
stretchers, the _thick_ seat, and the tapered leg holes going _through_
the seat.

I think John Alexander's chairs are more reliable than commercial,
he is taking advantage of the different shape available between wet
and dry (I think he is also the author of "the incredible duckbill
joint" in FWW on hand tools that is this joint with a spoon bit
and very careful grain orientation).  The woven seats also add a lot
of pull at the top of the legs to stay together.  I would be
uncomfortable with the longevity of an Alexander chair with a
solid seat though...

The simplist way to convince yourself is to make a stool with a
Dunbar type undercarriage and a round top.  You could drawknife
the turned parts, the only requirement is a thick top where the
legs go through, conical leg tops and seat holes (conceptually
like how Morse tapers work) and egg shaped tenon ends in the
stretchers.  Follow the book to pick off the final stretcher
dimensions.  Once you have done it it makes perfect sense.

Esther eoh@k...

What you are seeing here is most often as you correctly identified, making
dowels - not pegs - These dowels are used in making rakes and the like.
> I seem to recall Roy Underhill using a dowel plate for producing
> pins on one of his shows.  He split pieces of approximate size
> with a froe, and then drove them through a drilled hole in a
> steel plate.  I think there were several sizes of holes so that
> he could stage larger pieces to the proper size.
> Hope this helps.
>

Treenails, or "trunnals" are made in the following fashion around here
(includes Dutch and English history):
  Start with a dry section of a hardwood tree the length of the nail that
you want (if you are using 10 inch timbers the total length will be 10
inches. It is not necessary for either end to be protruding (you of course
may like that look but the ends of the pegs can in fact interfere with the
finishing of the work).
  I use a froe to split the log into 1 inch slabs. I then split the one inch
slabs into 1 inch square pegs. Normally at this point I go to the shaving
horse and take a small bit off each square edge. The pegs are more square
than octagon - you have heard of a square peg in a round hole - well that is
exactly what you want. One end of the peg is sharpened, starting only about
an inch back from the end giving a rather short point.
  When you have bored the one inch hole through the mortise you insert the
tennon and mark the spot in the tennon where the hole would like up. Take
the tennon out and move about 1/16 of an inch in the tennon toward the cheek
and there drill the one inch hole. This will cause the joint to tighten up
when the peg is hammered through the assembly.
  It really is best to use green wood for the frame and dry wood for the
pegs as they will tighten up greatly as it all dries out. By green wood I do
not necessarily mean just fallen timbers, it is normal to fell the trees in
the winter and then build the structure the following spring and summer.
This is so that the majority of the sap is down in the roots and not in the
tree itself.

> -----Original Message-----
> Off-hand I'd say I'll be needing at least a couple hundred
> treenails.  Is there some trick to producing these in a timely
> fashion, or does one have to hack them out one at a time using
> a hatchet ?  Hewing each one by hand could easily amount to
> the most time-consuming operation of the whole construction.

I have here an advertisement from a fellow up in NH by the name of
Scott Northcott, who "specializes in pegs for Timber Frame Construction".

RR1 Box 624
Valley Road
Walpole, NH  03608

Tel. 603-756-4204
Email:  northcott@t...

He makes all the pegs for the Timber Framer's Guild projects, and
is the main supplier for every timber framer I've met that didn't make
his own pegs.

He has tapered (1/64 over measurement to 1/64 under), straight
(which are actually 1 1/64" in diameter), and pegs chamfered on
both ends.

He also has "drawbore pegs", which are like the 1" tapered pegs,
but first 3 inches is tapered sharply to 5/8" diameter.

Pegs are made of air-dried oak or ash.

In one of his books, Tedd Benson recommends using a peg that
is two inches longer than the timber at hand.  That way, if the end
of the peg starts to split, you can cut off the end, and continue
driving the peg.  If your peg is the same size as the timber, then
you have two problems - the first is that the starter taper never
clears the other side of the timber (to be cut off), and the second
is that if the peg starts to split, you're screwed.  You really can't
back these out once you've got them in there.  Stuck, but good.

Bill Millios
who lurks here from time to time

In a message dated 98-07-26 00:26:31 EDT, Bill Millios wrote:
snip snip for brevity....
<< In one of his books, Tedd Benson recommends using a peg that
 is two inches longer than the timber at hand.  That way, if the end
 of the peg starts to split, you can cut off the end, and continue
 driving the peg.  If your peg is the same size as the timber, then
 you have two problems - the first is that the starter taper never
 clears the other side of the timber (to be cut off), and the second
 is that if the peg starts to split, you're screwed.  You really can't
 back these out once you've got them in there.  Stuck, but good.

 Bill Millios
 who lurks here from time to time
  >>

Excellent points Bill!  (pun intended!)  They're even a b**ch to drill out!
Ship augers don't like cutting end grain much, especially compressed stuff!
DAMHIKT...only way is to drive them all the way through like the arrow that
got stuck in Gus's legbone in Lonesome Dove.
BTW,  talk about nontraditional  timberframing, have you ever seen Benson's
shop? Only wood handled thing in there is the pull chain for the terlet!  We
got a power scarfer, a power mortiser, a power tennoner, a power chamfer
burfl, a power hole-putter-inner, a power dovetailer, a power surfacer, a
power everything!
Nick, who always seems to be making some sort of points...

On Jul 26, 12:23am, Millios@a... wrote:

> He has tapered (1/64 over measurement to 1/64 under), straight
> (which are actually 1 1/64" in diameter), and pegs chamfered on
> both ends.
>
> He also has "drawbore pegs", which are like the 1" tapered pegs,
> but first 3 inches is tapered sharply to 5/8" diameter.
>
> Pegs are made of air-dried oak or ash.
>
> In one of his books, Tedd Benson recommends using a peg that
> is two inches longer than the timber at hand.

At home I have a book, who's title & author escape me
right now, about the construction of clipper ships.  The
author collected essentially all info published in books
and newspaper reports from the time (1850's), and produced
an amazingly detailed explanation of all aspects of wooden
ship construction.

Anyway, he devotes 4 or 5 pages to treenails, with some
interesting notes:

Treenails were usually locust, with white oak as a second
choice.

Treenails were either round or octagonal (8-square), with
apparently no consensus on whether the octagonal shape
help better.

They were split from stock square, and either shaved
(hatchet or drawknife) or turned to final shape.

Treenails often had the last 2 inches left square, to
aid in driving (bigger target, I guess); this would be
cut off later.

Treenails would be stored in a boiler room to ensure
being as sry as possible when driven.

They usually were not tapered, or only for a very
short distance to ease starting.

Sometimes long treenails would be shaped with a step
(i.e. from 7/8 to 1-1/4 dia) to align with the
faying surfaces of the two pieces being joined.
This made driving the long treenails easier.

John

In response to Cougarjack's comments about Ted Benson's shop containing
every power tool imaginable.  I took a 1 week class at Benson's shop several
years ago and he's right.  Not only do they own the stuff mentioned, a power
hole-putter-inner??? ( I'm about ready for one of those), but Ted also
found, rescued and restored or rebuilt either a massive old two sided planer
or a four bladed tenon cutter.  He has both.  Probably the planer, I think
they had the tennoner built for them.

But, in addition to the power everything, all the guys who cut frames there
carry framing chisels, often in a sheath hanging from their belt (how cool
is that).  Immediately, after the class I had a leather guy in New Hope, PA
(no shortage of them) make a sheath made for my 1 ½" L&IJ White framing
chisel.  But the chisel is long and I'm not, and the thing almost hung below
my knee so it wasn't too cool to wear, especially at Jack Sobon's class,
which I took the following year.  In any case, Ted's guys are just fine with
a chisel.  Some of them had Japanese slicks.  Can't get much sexier than
that.

A funny story, at least I thought so, from Jack's class.  Jack is the Galoot
poster boy, in my mind.  I'd guess that anybody who has met him would
concur.  Anyway, Jack's class was relocating and rebuilding a barn outside
Pittsfield MA.  The site had no power save for a generator used by the
concrete contractors.  All our work was done sans power, normal for Jack.
On the last day, during a break at the raising, we encourage Jack to tell
some stories.  He's a great storyteller and has a lot of material.  The
philosophical differences between Jack and Ted are apparent.  I doubt Ted
cuts much wood anymore, although I'd love to be able to afford a frame from
his company.  During the stories, a couple of helicopters fly across the
valley overlooked by the building site.  The copters are in formation.  Jack
says, there goes Ted and the Beam Team to their next raising.

He also had a recollection of a meeting with Roy Underhill at some
woodworking show, and came away unimpressed with Roy's care for his tools, a
broadax, in this case.

On a side note,  I have been frequently entertained and educated by
Cougarjack's posts to the list.  His knowledge and ability to describe
things clearly and in detail is unsurpassed.  But who is this guy?  I can't
find his bio.

Michael Stieglitz
Mstieglitz@n...

Reply to message from MStieglitz@N... of Wed, 29 Jul
>
>
>But, in addition to the power everything, all the guys who cut frames there
>carry framing chisels, often in a sheath hanging from their belt (how cool
>is that).  Immediately, after the class I had a leather guy in New Hope, PA
>(no shortage of them) make a sheath made for my 1 =" L&IJ White framing
>chisel.  But the chisel is long and I'm not, and the thing almost hung below
>my knee so it wasn't too cool to wear, especially at Jack Sobon's class,
>which I took the following year.

Why don't you strap the chisel to your back with the handle extending up
past you shoulder so you can just reach back beside your head and draw
it out.

This would be sort of like how Xena carries her sword.  Talk about shiny
brass acoutriments--but I digress.

Just be careful slipping back into the sheath.

Cougarjack is Nick Catania in real life.....the "Cougarjack" is not my
invention, but was inherited from the person who passed this AOL account on to
me.  It's a pain to change the username on this service, so I just left it.
There WAS a good bio on me somewhere...in fact,  it started a couple of
threads back in the old days after LaMantia jumped my bones on saw sharpening
and setting.  I wonder what happened to the bio, heh listmoms???
For the record,  the lost bio is probably not the fault of the listmoms....a
few years ago, I fell to a serious illness and dropped offlist for almost a
year. The bio was probably purged.
I'm happy to hear that some folks are entertained by my postings. I've always
felt at home on the porch,  and I'll be around for the duration,  as long as
there is wood to fool with.
New bio follows:
Nick Catania,  commonly known around here as "Cougarjack",  resides in a very
old house which is in a state of constant renovation on his small farm/tree
plantation in Southern New Jersey,  accompanied by a very intelligent Golden
Retriever, who also collects old tools.   Formerly married to the classic
anti-christ of tools, machinery  and woodworking,  who happliy took a powder
and left behind lots of storage space for more tools. (P~~~)
Nick has dabbled for most of his 51 years at logging & sawmilling, handtool
collecting, boatbuilding, knife making & collecting, commercial fishing,  old
truck restoration,  timberframing,  leatherworking, blacksmithing, amateur
prospecting and mineral collecting, hunting,  gunsmithing, and other such
oddball pastimes from centuries past.
Nick has formal education in several scientific and engineering disciplines,
has served in public land use and regulatory functions,  has authored
conservation and preservation plans, was an aviator when he could still see
the little numbers on the gauges,   and regularly appears  in broadcloth
cape  and salt-hardened leather pauldrons at various re-enactment events as a
barbarian briggand and scoundrel. Formerly,  he could be seen fighting in live
steel events with broadsword and axe, but now he is satisfied with sitting in
the shade drinking good paga and burping while watching the young bucks test
their steel.

Nick especially loves old trucks, new money,  aged  handtools, that big hunk
of nice clear wood between the branch nodes in pinus strobus (eastern white
pine) curly maple, persimmon heart, eastern red cedar, and black walnut.

Nick detests saws with all the right hand teeth longer than all the left hand
teeth, (this was the statement that got LaMantia started) porcelain fence
insulators hidden in logs, and stag beetle larvae which consume more wood from
my woodpile than I do.  Also reproduction anything, plastic packaging, and the
telephone.

Nick's first love is the study of wood and its structure, uses, and growth
habits.

Current projects are restoring an old logbeam sawmill,  an old ford tractor,
and an old dodge pickup.

bio mode off

Regards,
Nick