OldTools Archive
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274271 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑03 | crossbow project |
Galoots Summer time has rolled around, and with it, my usual penchant for taking on an interesting project to while away the time whilst on holiday. This year I was inspired by a video I saw from Tod's Workshop on youtube. He was shooting a really basic crossbow, which he said was based on an 11th century French archaeological find (Colletière à Charavines). He mentioned in his shooting video that he had done a build video too. Ah, ok, that sounds interesting, so I looked it up (from like 3 years ago it was). He did a nice job on the video, and has good photos on his website, where you can purchase said crossbow, or plans to build your own. Well, in the SCA I play a woodworker, and I'm a galoot, so I'm not gonna buy the plans or the crossbow, because the video and pictures are sufficient for me. Or they should be, if my skills are worth anything. The guy who made the original a thousand years ago probably had no plans, just skills and experience. Let's Go! His one measurement mentioned in the video, plus the pix is good enough for me to scale the parts. His process description was excellent, explaining how you need a full, complete growth ring on the face of the prod (the bow part). Makes perfect sense. And his use of a plane and spokeshave are quite familiar to us, right? Tillering is a little foreign to me, but after making steam bent stuff I have a pretty good idea of what's happening. He used a 1m offcut of ash (old hand rail apparently) so I decided that ash would be fine for me too. I had my son help me pull the last two big ash planks out from under the wood rack. These are 19 inches wide, 8/4, 9 feet long. Huge by my standards. We inspected the stock and found some really straight grain on the edge of one that I figured I could use. We managed to hack a chunk off (my apprentice and his apprentice, ha ha) that was a bit longer than I needed. It's basically riftsawn, grain at a diagonal, so I had to saw the corners off to get the appropriate flatsawn stock for the prod. I tried using a bowsaw for this, but gah!, it was sooo slow and difficult to keep to the line. Switched to a Warranted Superior rip saw (8 TPI I think) and that worked way better! I ended up with a reasonable piece of stock, and then proceeded to bring it down to the same growth ring on one face all along its length. I got close with the drawknife, too close in fact, cutting through my precious ring in two places. Switched to the spokeshave, and that went far better. Slower, but safer, and now I have one ring along that face. Not sure about the size of the rings on Tod's stock, they appear to be thicker (faster growth) than mine. I count 8 rings per inch on mine, and I think his might be 6, but I still have to scale the thickness of the prod from the pix to be sure. In any case, I'm now to the point where I need to start thinning the stock down, back to the drawknife! I'll take pictures as I go, but right now it's just a big ole hunk o' wood. Nothing to see here yet. Darrell -- Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User |
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274272 | galoot@l... | 2021‑08‑03 | Re: crossbow project |
Quoting Darrell |
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274339 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑07 | Re: crossbow project |
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 23:56, |
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274341 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑08‑08 | Re: crossbow project |
Darrell said: "One limb began to twist. Probably 15 degrees out of wind now, and I am nowhere near done. Curses! This was such a nice stick, why is it misbehaving like this?" Hey Darrell: The "why" may never be known. Maybe it's just rebalancing its moisture, who knows? It probably doesn't matter if you have parallel rings all the way through the stock. I haven't steamed much, but I have used an old electric kettle with a bit of old radiator hose and a piece of 4" aluminum downspout to jerry-rig a steamer with rags as partial plugs for the ends. An old blankey was the insulation and a couple of drill holes for water drainage at the bottom on the far end. When it's all hot ( maybe an hour per inch of thickness? That rings a bell, YMMV), you have about 5 minutes or less to clamp it into the shape you want. I had some plywood forms ready, but whatever you clamp to has to be ready to go (not much time to fuss with clamps-- Everything has to be set up and ready to go, working time is less than you think). If it's already 'kindling', you've got nothing to lose, right? It's already useless, you can't possibly make it any worse, so I would steam it. It doesn't take much time, and it might save your project. Good luck, Claudio in Waterloo |
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274342 | Pete Leenhouts | 2021‑08‑09 | Re: crossbow project |
Some thoughts from the boatbuilding world...Yes, 1 hour of steam per inch of thickness. Wear gloves - the wood is very hot and will cause blisters (learned that the hard way). Some other thoughts - before the stock goes into the steamer, round off any squared edges along the grain with a plane - just a single pass - so the wood will have less of a tendency to split; and, wipe the wood down with dawn dish detergent - it makes it easier for the wood to bend. When it comes out of the steamer, and if the wood is thick, use a metal strap along the back of the bend to keep it from splintering. Be prepared to work quickly (the thinner the stock, the less time you have), and let the wood dry for 24-48 hours while in the form. With wood that is 3/4-inch thick, we learned you might have as little as 60-90 seconds before the lignin begins to set and the wood becomes difficult to bend without breaking. Pete LeenhoutsPort Ludlow WA |
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274343 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑09 | Re: crossbow project |
Thanks Pete. I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that. I'm just imparting a twist, not a band, so backing straps etc are not an issue. I'll give it a try next week and see what happens. It's just kindling right now, and it this works, I have my project back! Darrell On 09/08/2021, Pete Leenhouts via groups.io |
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274344 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2021‑08‑09 | Re: crossbow project |
On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 2:28 PM Darrell wrote: > Thanks Pete. > > I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that. > Back when I was building an 1830s-style banjo and had to bend wood for the hoop I soaked the wood in a fabric softener solution for a few days, which apparently is still a thing. I'm not sure it helped, but the backing straps definitely saved my bacon. Brian |
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274345 | Mark van Roojen <mvr1@e...> | 2021‑08‑10 | Re: crossbow project |
Darrell wrote in response to Pete's suggestion: >I never heard of the dish detergent trick, might try that. The version of this I heard was fabric softener in the soak water. I did try that once when I made a guitar years ago, out of claro walnut. In that case I soaked the wood and then bent the thin wood over a heated pipe before sticking it in the mold. I used a spray bottle to keep it wet. That was 35 years ago so details are fuzzy. Since I have only built one acoustic guitar I don't have a control to compare my results to. - Mark |
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274346 | Ed Hennessy | 2021‑08‑10 | Re: crossbow project |
I use fabric softener and water to make veneer more pliable before glue up. Glycerine also works. Not sure the effects on thicker wood but I'd think it worth a try. Ed HennessyBuffalo, NY |
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274347 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑08‑10 | Re: crossbow project |
Pete Leenhouts wrote: "....wipe the wood down with dawn dish detergent - it makes it easier for the wood to bend." I would guess that this works because the dish liquid acts as a surfactant, reducint the surface tension of the water, and allowing it t penetrate more deeply between the fibers of the wood. I was taught to lift the endpapers of a book with water with a drop of surfactant in it; you paint the mixture on and wait a few minutes for the water to soften the adhesive, then you can lift off the endpaper without (in theory) damage. Its trickier than it looks, but to do the same thing with plain water would take hours---the usual procedure with plain water is to submerge the board, accepting destruction of the board for the sake of saving the endpaper. I never liked the idea of using surfactant; my take was that however it is acting, the surfactant remains in the paper afterwards, all ready to cause some kind of trouble, maybe years lalter. Just a tiny amount of it, my teacher said, but it is (I figured) something which has big effects in tiny amounts. For paper and books, fortunately, there is another option: a mixture of alcohol (just about any alcohol) with water will achieve the same end: the mixture penetrates between the paper fibers, and although the alcohol evaporates out quickly (leaving no residue), it leaves behind the water to soften the adhesive (always paste or hot glue with an old book---modern books with synthetic adhesives are a major problem). Unfortunately, I can't see how to apply the alcohol mixture idea to hot steam bending. A pity. Tom ConroyBerkeley |
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274407 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑22 | Re: crossbow project |
Galoots So I spent some time last weekend with a camp stove and some handscrews trying to untwist the crossbow prod I am working on. My hope was that boiling the wood might allow me to recast the twist so that I could continue with the project. It seems to have worked. This weekend I am busy figuring out how "tillering" works. It's one of those woodworking things that's more art than skill but you still need to be kinda skillful with the tools. In this case it's a Stanley #64 spokeshave. I tried uploading a bunch of the pix on Groups.io. See my album at https://groups.io/g/oldtools/album?id=267353 The tillering is going OK I think, but the curvature of the two limbs isn't even. so I have a bit more work to do before starting on the stock. And then I have to make a string for it. And the trigger mechanism, that's gonna be right up there with "Interesting". -- Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User |
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274430 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑28 | Re: crossbow project |
Galoots, Last couple of evenings I've been working a bit on this crossbow. Recall my tale of woe when the ash bow developed a twist, that was resolved by a desperate attempt at wood-bending, and it actually worked! The bow bends just fine now, although my idea of proper may not be what a bowyer would consider so. I'm given to understand that tillering a bow is more art than science, but that's what bending wood is like too, and I found that that is not beyond my grasp. And so I trust that my first attempt at tillering is at least good enough to function. I went through the wood pile and found a nice bent piece of mulberry for the trigger. The grain flows nicely around the curve. That'll make it plenty strong enough. The bolt groove was made with a small plow followed by a #4 round plane. The whole thing was given a coat of orange shellac to keep some of the dirt and weather off of it. My work at splicing and serving the strap to hold the bow to the stock is also somewhat unskilled. Downright ugly, but once again I hope that it will be sufficient. My skills at fletching are also somewhat suspect. Damn, with all the first-time, half-assed, best-guess stuff involved in this project I'll be lucky if I can fire off all three of the bolts I made before something self-destructs. I guess this is more of that "workmanship of risk" eh? I've added some more pictures to the groups.io album. https://groups.io/g/oldtools/album?id=267353 Kathy and I are going to a local SCA archery practice on Sunday, so I get to try shooting this thing. I will definitely get some photos of that! Darrell -- Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User |
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274435 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑08‑28 | Re: crossbow project |
Brother Darrell: Gadzooks man, have you used a metal nail as a pivot for your trigger? A nail?? Not a wooden peg? I fear you shall be shunned by the guild if the judges see that (lol). The fletching looks good, I like the pleasing shape and colors but I don’t know enough to see why you criticize your work? The bolts look great to me, but considering your name, we should call them Darrell quarrels. Cheers Claudio |
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274436 | Stager, Scott P. <StagerS@m...> | 2021‑08‑28 | Re: crossbow project |
Trigger/firing question: Looks like the string (don’t know correct word :0) just hooks over the notch in the stock. Does that mean that the bolts do not have nocks, and that the trigger just pushes the string up off the notch where it “slams” into the waiting bolt? If so, is that a bit iffy whether it might “miss” the bolt? And what keeps the bolt from falling off if the crossbow isn’t kept nicely horizontal? Overall it looks pretty cool and should go over great at SCA events. —Scott (the one in Missouri) On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:55 PM, Darrell via groups.io<http://groups.io> |
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274438 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑28 | Re: crossbow project |
Hi Scott Your analysis is correct, the string just pops up out of the notch and hits the bolt. No nock on the bolt. I was watching the utube video from Tod’s Workshop where he was shooting one of these things. To keep the bolt in place whilst shooting off horizontal he just held down the end of the bolt with his thumb. The string apparently did not catch his thumb as it went, or maybe he’s got lots of calluses. I will find out tomorrow. Maybe I will bring some tape with me to wrap around my bruised and abraded thumb. On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 9:14 AM Stager, Scott P. |
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274455 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑30 | Re: Crossbow project |
Galoots So last night I was showing a few of you my recently (as in finish isn't dry yet) completed crossbow project. It's not particularly powerful, speculation being that the Medieval original was for small game at fairly close range. This afternoon we went to a local archery practice where I could give my new toy a try. It works! Nothing fell apart or got too loose or broke. I am quite pleased with how this turned out. I need to practice a fair bit with it before I can get anywhere near accurate. http://galootopedia.com/old-tools_wiki/images/thumb/9/95/IMG-2493.PNG/800px- IMG-2493.PNG You can see the bolt in the air in the picture, about halfway to the target, which is at a mere 10 yards. I'm really happy with the tool I made with a bunch of wood and some old tools. Now I need to make a few more quarrels so I can reduce the number of times I have to walk to and fro at the range. Darrell -- Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User |
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274460 | Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> | 2021‑08‑30 | Re: Crossbow project |
That is outstanding! It is good that you pointed out the bolt in mid-air. My old eyes missed that on the first glance. The nice fletching work made it easy to locate the bolt. I wonder if using a waxed bow string might eke a bit more power due to reduced friction. My 6' long bow strings are quieter and last longer when I make them with waxed string. Nice project! Tim Feeling motivated to take out my long bow and miss some targets... |
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274467 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑08‑31 | Re: Crossbow project |
That’s awesome Darrell! Is there anything you would have made differently now that you’ve used it a bit? I went down the rabbit hole this morning to discover that there are plenty of videos on making crossbows and all the accoutrements on the inter webs. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio |
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274474 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑08‑31 | Re: Crossbow project |
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 6:30 AM Claudio DeLorenzi |
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